Command Subjunctive

[tusharkhatri18]

Hi,

While reading from MGMAT SC Guide 4th Edition Pg 113, I found that for command subjunctive the sentence construction is:

Bossy Verb + THAT + subject + Command Subjunctive
Eg. We PROPOSE THAT the school board DISBAND.

whereas for command infinitive the sentence construction is:

Bossy Verb + subject + Command Infinitive
Eg. The vice-president WANTS her TO GO to the retreat.

After seeing both these examples, can I conclude that all sentences having command subjunctive consist of subjective pronouns and that having command infinitive consist of objective pronouns?

[RonPurewal]

Sorry, I don't know these grammar terms.

It's easy to write such sentences with no pronouns at all, though; e.g., Angry customers demanded that the company's latest advertising campaign be quashed.

So, the answer to "Must all sentences with this construction contain _____ pronouns?" seems to be no, regardless of what "____" might be.

[tusharkhatri18]

Hi Ron,
One more question. I have read that there are some verbs that can be written in both forms as described above.
Some of them are ask, beg, intend, order, prefer, urge and require.
I am little confused.
For example,

We order that food be deliver.
We order food to be delivered.

She ask that he throw the ball.
She ask him to throw the ball.

Please tell me whether these sentences are right. Please correct wherever they are wrong.

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,
One more question. I have read that there are some verbs that can be written in both forms as described above.
Some of them are ask, beg, intend, order, prefer, urge and require.

This is a nuance that, if tested, would heavily favor native speakers of English. For that reason, I am certain that GMAC will not test this issue.

If it appears that this issue is being tested on some problem, it's almost certainly there as a distraction"”to pull your eye away from easier, more fundamental things. In that case, look for some other, more obvious issue in the problem.

7-8+ years ago, the test may have tested these sorts of things, but, since ETS sold the test to PearsonVUE, almost everything that heavily favors native English speakers has been removed.

[RonPurewal]

-- Remember, you don't need to know this stuff for the current GMAT --

We order that food be deliver.
We order food to be delivered.

The first of these does not exist.

For the second, you'd just say "We order food".
"Order ___ to VERB" is generally used when ___ is a person, e.g., "We ordered the new intern to bring us food."

She ask that he throw the ball.
She ask him to throw the ball.

The first of these implies an indirect request.
E.g., "Sharon asked that Jim attend the party" implies that Sharon was not actually talking to Jim.
I.e., Sharon told someone else, "Hey, make sure Jim comes to the party. Then, that person told Jim, "Sharon asks that you attend the party."

The second means that someone directly told someone else to throw a ball.

[JbhB682]

She ask that he throw the ball.
She ask him to throw the ball.

The first of these implies an indirect request.
E.g., "Sharon asked that Jim attend the party" implies that Sharon was not actually talking to Jim.
I.e., Sharon told someone else, "Hey, make sure Jim comes to the party. Then, that person told Jim, "Sharon asks that you attend the party."

The second means that someone directly told someone else to throw a ball.

Wow the above explanation by Ron really helps explain the difference in meaning between the two sentences (helping solidify why ASK can be used with command subjunctive or with the infinitive)

I was wondering if experts can do the same for another sentence

We advise THAT he show up on time
vs
We advise him to show up on time

I believe the 1st sentence is wrong. Just wondering experts, if anyone can explain why the 1st is wrong through logic or meaning ?

[esledge]

She ask that he throw the ball.
She ask him to throw the ball.

The first of these implies an indirect request.
E.g., "Sharon asked that Jim attend the party" implies that Sharon was not actually talking to Jim.
I.e., Sharon told someone else, "Hey, make sure Jim comes to the party. Then, that person told Jim, "Sharon asks that you attend the party."

The second means that someone directly told someone else to throw a ball.

Wow the above explanation by Ron really helps explain the difference in meaning between the two sentences (helping solidify why ASK can be used with command subjunctive or with the infinitive)

I was wondering if experts can do the same for another sentence

We advise THAT he show up on time
vs
We advise him to show up on time

I believe the 1st sentence is wrong. Just wondering experts, if anyone can explain why the 1st is wrong through logic or meaning ?

Both of your sentences are right. While I agree with Ron about the direct-telling or indirect-telling difference he noted, and agree that the GMAT won't test this direct vs. indirect aspect of this topic, it is false that the GMAT doesn't test command subjunctive at all.

The GMAT would be agnostic about your two sentences. The meaning difference is so subtle (and both could be right), that the GMAT just wouldn't make you judge whether we (passive-aggressively) advise him indirectly to show up on time or whether we tell him to his face. The GMAT doesn't even get into that kind of tone-policing on the RC questions.

What the GMAT would do is expect you to eliminate an incorrect hybrid of these two sentences, or other incorrect variations. I'll change "he/him" to a name to better make one of my points:

Correct: We advise that Julian show up on time.
Correct: We advise Julian to show up on time.

Wrong: We advise Julian shows up on time.
---> This is the bad hybrid of your two correct examples. "Julian shows up on time" works as a sentence, and so does "We advise Julian." But mushed together, the two clauses are fighting over Julian. (Is he the object of the first verb or the subject of the second??) This sentence is missing the "that" that tells you a new clause is coming. The GMAT puts this error in wrong answers frequently.

Wrong: We advise that Julian should show up on time.
---> With the command subjunctive "that," the "should" is understood, so it's redundant to actually say it here.

Wrong: We advise Julian to be showing up on time.
---> We advise him directly "to do" something, not "to be doing" something, so this is a verb error.

[JbhB682]

Correct: We advise Julian to show up on time.

Wrong: We advise Julian to be showing up on time.
---> We advise him directly "to do" something, not "to be doing" something, so this is a verb error.

Hi Emily - could you explain what is the verb error in the wrong sentence above ?

I thought the 2nd sentence was okay compared to the 1st, specifically the only difference between the 1st and 2nd is the first is active voice whereas the 2nd is passive voice.

Is the second grammatically okay but perhaps wrong from an altered meaning compared to the first statement ?

[esledge]

I thought the 2nd sentence was okay compared to the 1st, specifically the only difference between the 1st and 2nd is the first is active voice whereas the 2nd is passive voice.

Is the second grammatically okay but perhaps wrong from an altered meaning compared to the first statement ?

Yes, I think this is more of a meaning difference, but it came to mind because I've seen OG examples of wrong answers like the 2nd example. This is typically wrong if you also have the 1st option, which is simpler, and if the 1st conveys the intended meaning. You'd only need the extra words in the "to be doing" form if the meaning called for them. For example:

Correct: To make a good impression, we advise Julian to be working hard when the boss visits today.