Non Countable/Countable nouns

[nash.avi]

I'm not sure which ones are correct. could you please explain.
1. All of the class is/are here.

2. Half of my family lives/live in Canada.

3. With a total population of less/fewer than two hundred and fewer breeding females

4. More than 200 million people in world earn less/fewer than 10 dollars a day

Sentences below have countable "words" but less sounds correct. Please confirm if the sentences are correct. If not please explain.

a. You’ll need less paper if you type your report.

b. It's less than twenty miles to Dallas.

c. He's less than six feet tall.

d. Your essay should be a thousand words or less.

e. We spent less than forty dollars on our trip.

Thanks in advance

[StaceyKoprince]

1. All of the class is/are here.

This is a SANAM pronoun; the noun in the "of" prepositional phrase determines whether the verb is singular or plural. "Class" is singular, so "is" is the right verb here.

2. Half of my family lives/live in Canada.

Works the same way as SANAM pronouns. "Family" is singular, so "lives" is the right verb here.

3. With a total population of less/fewer than two hundred and fewer breeding females

Drop the "and fewer": "With a total population of less/fewer than two hundred breeding females." Can you count the number of females? One female, two females, three females? Sure. So use "fewer."

4. More than 200 million people in world earn less/fewer than 10 dollars a day

This one's tricky. Are the people earning fewer than 10 "dollar bills" (not just dollars, but actual bills)? No, we're talking about the amount of money in whatever form, not the literal number of dollar bills. The word / concept "money" is an uncountable noun (1 money, 2 moneys, 3 moneys? :) Use "less."

For a, b, c, d, e, not all of these are countable. When you're counting paper, do you say "1 paper, 2 papers, 3 papers?" No, you say "1 sheet of paper, 2 sheets, 3 sheets." Sheets are countable. Paper is not. (Unless you're talking about, say, complete papers you wrote for school - like a report. I wrote 1 paper, 2 papers, 3 papers this semester. That's countable.) (D) should be fewer because you can actually count the words; I know "less" sounds better to you, but that's because nobody actually says "fewer" any more. But we're all speaking incorrectly all the time. :)

On the others, what are you actually trying to say? If you're talking about the general concept of distance (b), the general concept of height (c), or the general concept of money (e), then they're uncountable (the nouns used here can function either as the literal, countable nouns, or as representations of the concepts). If you're literally talking about miles, feet, or dollar bills, then you're using countable nouns. Most of the time, for these kinds of sentences, we're referring to the concept, not the literal noun.

[messagegc]

Hi Stacey,


While looking for some clarification regarding SANAM pronouns, I came across this page. The explanation for the examples is really nice, but I could not understand the last paragraph where you have mentioned the following: "...the nouns used here can function either as the literal, countable nouns, or as representations of the concepts..."

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the aforementioned point using sentence b. i.e., It's less than twenty miles to Dallas. How exactly can distance act as literal, countable noun or as representation of the concept (with example of each type)?


Thanks & Regards,
Gaurav

[RonPurewal]

Hi Stacey,


While looking for some clarification regarding SANAM pronouns, I came across this page. The explanation for the examples is really nice, but I could not understand the last paragraph where you have mentioned the following: "...the nouns used here can function either as the literal, countable nouns, or as representations of the concepts..."

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the aforementioned point using sentence b. i.e., It's less than twenty miles to Dallas. How exactly can distance act as literal, countable noun or as representation of the concept (with example of each type)?


Thanks & Regards,
Gaurav

i'll simplify this a bit.

if you are using NUMBERS AND UNITS to represent a CONTINUOUS MEASUREMENT, then you ALWAYS use UNCOUNTABLE constructions with "THAN".

so, for instance, you would ALWAYS write "less than X feet" to represent a height, and you would [/b]ALWAYS write "less than X miles" to represent a highway distance[/b].

the only exception here is when you're tagging an adjective DIRECTLY ONTO the noun (i.e., no "than"). then, in that case, you have to use "fewer" with anything that's a plural.
so, for instance, "i drove fewer miles last year than my brother did" is correct.

--

where it gets hairy - and what stacey was trying to explain above - is in the case of NON-CONTINUOUS quantities, such as words.

in this case, you have to decide what you're trying to EMPHASIZE.

if you're trying to emphasize the COLLECTIVE AMOUNT OF STUFF, then you use the UNCOUNTABLE.
the length of this paper should be less than 1000 words. --> correct, since the length of the WHOLE PAPER is a single collective; i.e., the emphasis is not on the individual words.

if you're trying to emphasize the INDIVIDUAL UNITS, then you use the COUNTABLE.
the gorilla has a vocabulary of fewer than 30 words. --> correct, since the emphasis is on the individual words that make up the vocabulary.

this last distinction is subtle enough that i doubt it will ever form the basis of an actual official problem.

[JianchengD868]

Hi Stacey,


While looking for some clarification regarding SANAM pronouns, I came across this page. The explanation for the examples is really nice, but I could not understand the last paragraph where you have mentioned the following: "...the nouns used here can function either as the literal, countable nouns, or as representations of the concepts..."

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the aforementioned point using sentence b. i.e., It's less than twenty miles to Dallas. How exactly can distance act as literal, countable noun or as representation of the concept (with example of each type)?


Thanks & Regards,
Gaurav

i'll simplify this a bit.

if you are using NUMBERS AND UNITS to represent a CONTINUOUS MEASUREMENT, then you ALWAYS use UNCOUNTABLE constructions with "THAN".

so, for instance, you would ALWAYS write "less than X feet" to represent a height, and you would [/b]ALWAYS write "less than X miles" to represent a highway distance[/b].

the only exception here is when you're tagging an adjective DIRECTLY ONTO the noun (i.e., no "than"). then, in that case, you have to use "fewer" with anything that's a plural.
so, for instance, "i drove fewer miles last year than my brother did" is correct.

--

where it gets hairy - and what stacey was trying to explain above - is in the case of NON-CONTINUOUS quantities, such as words.

in this case, you have to decide what you're trying to EMPHASIZE.

if you're trying to emphasize the COLLECTIVE AMOUNT OF STUFF, then you use the UNCOUNTABLE.
the length of this paper should be less than 1000 words. --> correct, since the length of the WHOLE PAPER is a single collective; i.e., the emphasis is not on the individual words.

if you're trying to emphasize the INDIVIDUAL UNITS, then you use the COUNTABLE.
the gorilla has a vocabulary of fewer than 30 words. --> correct, since the emphasis is on the individual words that make up the vocabulary.

this last distinction is subtle enough that i doubt it will ever form the basis of an actual official problem.

Dear Ron,
I want to ask a question about MEASUREMENT of NUMBERS.
You have said that we should use less than with ''the number of people', cuz the number of people means the number, such as 50.
I accidentally found an exception -- If there are an equal number of students in the third and fourth grades, then the number of students in third grade is how many greater or fewer than the number of students in kindergarten? --in the following expression in Manhattan GMAT CAT Math.
I tried to paste the website, but I am not allowed to do so. I am so sorry you need to google it by yourself.
Could you please help me to solve the puzzle?
Thank you so much.
Best,
Emily.

[RonPurewal]

don't apply SC principles to math problems. because they're ... well ... math problems.

[RonPurewal]

more specifically—the SC problems are all carefully edited to ensure (a) that they conform to the principles tested on this exam, and (b) that they don't depend on things that aren't tested on this exam.

obviously, we can't apply the same rigorous standard to EVERY sentence that appears in any random part of the exam. imagine the cost of all that editing, for really no gain.

(if you look through the CR, RC, and quant parts of GMAC's materials, you'll likewise find many instances in which the SC principles are violated. but those aren't the SC section, so it's fine.)

[JianchengD868]

more specifically—the SC problems are all carefully edited to ensure (a) that they conform to the principles tested on this exam, and (b) that they don't depend on things that aren't tested on this exam.

obviously, we can't apply the same rigorous standard to EVERY sentence that appears in any random part of the exam. imagine the cost of all that editing, for really no gain.

(if you look through the CR, RC, and quant parts of GMAC's materials, you'll likewise find many instances in which the SC principles are violated. but those aren't the SC section, so it's fine.)

Hi Ron,
Thanks for your reply.
Regards,
Emily

[tim]

:)

[RonPurewal]

you're welcome.

[RonPurewal]

most importantly, each different part of the gmat tests a different skill set——even in the case of tasks that might functionally resemble one another.

e.g., RC detail questions are functionally similar to CR inference questions, in that both require to pick the option that must be true. however, CR inference questions will ALWAYS require you to combine at least two statements to arrive at your answer, whereas RC detail questions almost never require you to do so (most RC detail questions "flip", or rephrase, just one statement from the reading).
the difference exists because, though similar, these problem types are testing distinct skill sets: the CR inferences are testing your ability to make logical connections, while the RC details are testing your ability to find specific information.

"ok ron, i get it, but what's your point?"

my point is that putting the wrong skill set to work——as in this case, in which someone is applying SC skills to the math section——is not only unhelpful but actually counterproductive, as it can blur the lines between the different skill sets.

[JianchengD868]

most importantly, each different part of the gmat tests a different skill set——even in the case of tasks that might functionally resemble one another.

e.g., RC detail questions are functionally similar to CR inference questions, in that both require to pick the option that must be true. however, CR inference questions will ALWAYS require you to combine at least two statements to arrive at your answer, whereas RC detail questions almost never require you to do so (most RC detail questions "flip", or rephrase, just one statement from the reading).
the difference exists because, though similar, these problem types are testing distinct skill sets: the CR inferences are testing your ability to make logical connections, while the RC details are testing your ability to find specific information.

"ok ron, i get it, but what's your point?"

my point is that putting the wrong skill set to work——as in this case, in which someone is applying SC skills to the math section——is not only unhelpful but actually counterproductive, as it can blur the lines between the different skill sets.

Dear Ron,

So much thanks for your help. You are so nice.
I'm sorry to reply this post so late, because I only received remainders via email for the former reviews not this one.
Thank you again, and may you all the best.

Regards,
jianchengD868

[RonPurewal]

no worries. (the simple fact that you replied to say 'thanks' already puts you in a minority.)

...and thanks for the kind words.