"propose" between the command subjunctive and the idioms

[at.ouchen]

Good day
In manhattan SC in page 114 I've came across with the following sentence

Common Verbs that take ONLY the Command Subjunctive:
demand, dictate, insist, mandate, propose, recommend, request, stipulate, suggest

but next in the idioms section page 163
I've found
RIGHT:
The attorneys PROPOSED a new venue.
The attorneys PROPOSED TO MEET for lunch.

Is it a kind of contradiction?
many thanks in advance

[RonPurewal]

See, this is why you shouldn't memorize lists.

NEVER memorize lists of things in SC.
ALWAYS understand the PATTERN that creates the lists in the first place.

This whole idea of "command subjunctive""”despite the scary-looking term"”is pretty simple. If you are stating a demand, or a requirement, or a request, or a statement of importance, then you use that kind of construction. If not, you don't.

That's it.

The problem with memorizing lists is that ... well, it doesn't work.
It doesn't work because some of these verbs can represent demands/requests/statements of importance in some contexts, but other things in other contexts.

(examples in next post)

[RonPurewal]

E.g.,
"propose"...
... can mean "put forward an idea for consideration", which falls under the idea of a request.
Ellis proposed that evolution be included in the seventh-grade science curriculum.

BUT
... can also mean "hypothesize" or "give a possible explanation", which is not a request.
Ellis proposed that evolution occurs in large, discrete steps, rather than gradually.
(If you wrote "occur" here, then Ellis would be submitting a request to whatever God(s) he might happen to believe in.)

The same is true with "suggest". If I suggest some possible course of action, then you use the construction. If evidence suggests that some hypothesis is true, you don't.

Also, don't forget that "simple concepts that are impossible to memorize" is pretty much the entire point of the GMAT verbal section. So, if you are trying to memorize lists ... you know how that's going to turn out.

[at.ouchen]

Thank you Ron, it really does help a lot, nice explanation!!!!

[dfs]

You should also remember the rule on page 113:

The subjunctive construction always follows the following pattern:

Bossy verb + THAT + subject + command subjunctive.

None of your examples includes that.

In contrast, "The attorneys PROPOSED that Ron Purewal and Daniel be in the restaurant tomorrow" clearly needs to be a subjunctive construction.

But I am wondering if the following construction would work as well:
"The attorneys PROPOSED that Ron Purewal meet Daniel in the restaurant tomorrow" Even though it follows the pattern , it sounds really bad to me.

I demand that the answer be here soon!

[RonPurewal]

But I am wondering if the following construction would work as well:
"The attorneys PROPOSED that Ron Purewal meet Daniel in the restaurant tomorrow" Even though it follows the pattern , it sounds really bad to me.

There's nothing wrong with this sentence.

If you're using "sound" as a guide, then you're in for some trouble. This is a test of written English"”which is genuinely a different language from spoken English.
Almost EVERY well-written English sentence"”barring extremely short or simple ones"”"sounds" bad. Because, well, it's not spoken English.

[sw001]

But like "propose" there are other words as well that can take such different forms (subjunctive and infinitive) depending upon the context. And there are verbs categorized under "command subjunctive" if thats the only form they take. Since the construction is idiomatic - the only way to know the correct format is to know the accepted construction for a given verb.

If propose does take both the forms - then it should categorized under "Infinitive + Subjunctive). Correct? The idea is what is accepted on the GMAT. Does both forms of propose (infinitive and subjunctive) accepted in Sentence Correction as correct format?

[RonPurewal]

I don't really know terminology, so I can't help you there.

If you have to make this decision, though, then you WILL have sufficient context to decide.
If the context is something like "demand that X happen" / "request that X happen" / "it is really, really important that X happen", then you use the "weird"/"special" (subjunctive) form. If not, then you don't.

If you actually have to make this decision on the exam, you will always have enough context. Always.

[sw001]

thank you Ron for your explanation :)

[RonPurewal]

Sure.

By the way, this thread is now locked, because it's not in the right place. (Questions about strategy guide material belong in the MGMAT non-CAT folder.)

Thanks.