Questions on SC from Thursdays with Ron- 5th Jan'12

[aniruddha601]

I have a doubt on Question discussed from 28-40 mins -
Option D) A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, areno longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

In this question instructor Tommy rejected option B & E as there was no noun after modifiers. However, in option D I find the same issue - are is present instead of noun being modified. Can someone please help me understand the logic behind this?

Also on a separate note, it will will be very helpful if someone can explain/provide the link to understand how past participles act as modifiers. I want to understand whether how it works and whether it modifies only the object present before the comma

P.S I have gone through most of Ron's videos on SC, RC and CR. Thanks a lot Ron and MGMAT for all the videos! They have helped me understand intriguing concepts and hopefully I will be able to convert that in scores :)

[Willy]

I have a doubt on Question discussed from 28-40 mins -

Option D) A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, areno longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

In this question instructor Tommy rejected option B & E as there was no noun after modifiers. However, in option D I find the same issue - are is present instead of noun being modified. Can someone please help me understand the logic behind this?

Also on a separate note, it will will be very helpful if someone can explain/provide the link to understand how past participles act as modifiers. I want to understand whether how it works and whether it modifies only the object present before the comma

P.S I have gone through most of Ron's videos on SC, RC and CR. Thanks a lot Ron and MGMAT for all the videos! They have helped me understand intriguing concepts and hopefully I will be able to convert that in scores :)

Though I haven't watched this class recording but I think as written by you, option D is correct because plural verb ARE is required for plural subject "the powerful effects".

In case I am not missing anything, I can't see any noun modifier issue in the sentence written by you.

past participles modifiers i.e. VERB-ed modifier can only modify nouns.
e.g. Bombarded by bullets, the troops retreated.

Here in this sentence "Bombarded" modifies "the troops".

Hope I am making some sense.

[aniruddha601]

Though I haven't watched this class recording but I think as written by you, option D is correct because plural verb ARE is required for plural subject "the powerful effects".

In case I am not missing anything, I can't see any noun modifier issue in the sentence written by you.

past participles modifiers i.e. VERB-ed modifier can only modify nouns.
e.g. Bombarded by bullets, the troops retreated.

Here in this sentence "Bombarded" modifies "the troops".

Hope I am making some sense.

Going by subj-vb agreement 'are' do make sense. But my question is one of the lesson in video was that we should have noun following modifiers which is not present here! This logic was used to eliminate options for this problem.

In case Verb-ED modifier, will it still modify the immediate preceding noun if it is following a clause/phrase?

[Willy]

Though I haven't watched this class recording but I think as written by you, option D is correct because plural verb ARE is required for plural subject "the powerful effects".

In case I am not missing anything, I can't see any noun modifier issue in the sentence written by you.

past participles modifiers i.e. VERB-ed modifier can only modify nouns.
e.g. Bombarded by bullets, the troops retreated.

Here in this sentence "Bombarded" modifies "the troops".

Hope I am making some sense.

Going by subj-vb agreement 'are' do make sense. But my question is one of the lesson in video was that we should have noun following modifiers which is not present here! This logic was used to eliminate options for this problem.

In case Verb-ED modifier, will it still modify the immediate preceding noun if it is following a clause/phrase?

I think you are mistaken by the wording of instructor Tommy OR the scrolling up/down of question. I have just downloaded the video of this class and watched this question.

In this question, Option A and E are eliminated on the basis of S-V error issue. So, I won't discuss these two options.

Option B and C are eliminated on the basis of modifier issue. Lets see these options.

Option B states -

No longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, are the powerful effects of random reinforcement as indicated by a recent study.

So, in this sentence what is 'No longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors, (as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry)' MUST come after the COMMA. But here in this option there is ARE, so this construction is wrong. This is what the modifier issue is. (You can remove the bracketed part to understand it more clearly.)

Option C states -

As evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, a recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement are no longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors.

Option D states -

A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, are no longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors.


In this option C, 'As evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry' is a modifier and it is modifying 'a recent study'. And it doesn't make sense.

In this option D, 'As evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry' is a modifier and it is modifying 'the powerful effects of random reinforcement'. And it does make sense.

Ask - Is it the recent study or the powerful effects of random reinforcement that are evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry??

the powerful effects of random reinforcement -- makes sense to above question. So, option D is right.

[RonPurewal]

I have a doubt on Question discussed from 28-40 mins -
Option D) A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, areno longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

in this sentence, "as evidenced by..." describes the stuff that comes before it. so that issue should be settled.

Also on a separate note, it will will be very helpful if someone can explain/provide the link to understand how past participles act as modifiers. I want to understand whether how it works and whether it modifies only the object present before the comma

you'll get a lot more mileage out of just typing "past participle modifier" into google and reading the stuff that falls out.

here's the first hit i got:
http://writing123.com/day/days-1-5/past-participles

that is pretty good.

P.SThanks a lot Ron and MGMAT for all the videos!

you're welcome.

[vikram4689]

Hi Ron,

For B, Tommy gave the reason that "no longer limited..." is a modifier and needs a noun instead of verb "are" BUT i tend to disagree with Tommy. Main clause is written in backward construction
backward construction - No longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors are the powerful effects of random reinforcement as indicated by a recent study
corresponding forward construction - the powerful effects of random reinforcement as indicated by a recent study are no longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

So "no longer limited ..." is object of main clause. please comment on this

my 2nd question is that, in one of your videos, you mentioned that "as" can only be followed by clause or prepositional modifier but "as evidenced..." is neither of these. it is verb-ed modifier, so isn't it incorrect

[tim]

you are correct about your first point..

"evidenced" introduces a clause..

[vikram4689]

where is the subject in "evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry"

[RonPurewal]

my 2nd question is that, in one of your videos, you mentioned that "as" can only be followed by clause or prepositional modifier but "as evidenced..." is neither of these. it is verb-ed modifier, so isn't it incorrect

you must have taken something out of context here, because there are all sorts of examples in which "as" is followed by other stuff. for instance, here are two sentences in which it is correctly followed by nouns:
i am almost twice as tall as my cousin
for halloween, i dressed up as britney spears

remember that "as" can do a lot of things. in the case of any word with many different functions -- e.g., as or that -- you should avoid trying to memorize "rules" and instead concentrate on learning examples of the different uses of those words.
see the problem with "rules" is that they are only going to apply to a small subset of the number of possible ways in which these versatile words can be used; trying to decide in real time whether they do or don't apply in any given situation is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
on the other hand, if you learn a few canonical examples, then you can simply reason by analogy when you see unfamiliar sentences. that's the way in which our brains are actually wired to learn language, so it should be way easier.

in fact, this advice -- try to learn as much as possible with examples and analogies, rather than "rules" -- applies across the board, but it's especially important in the case of words with unusually many different usages.

[aniruddha601]

I have a doubt on Question discussed from 28-40 mins -
Option D) A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, areno longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

in this sentence, "as evidenced by..." describes the stuff that comes before it. so that issue should be settled.

Also on a separate note, it will will be very helpful if someone can explain/provide the link to understand how past participles act as modifiers. I want to understand whether how it works and whether it modifies only the object present before the comma

you'll get a lot more mileage out of just typing "past participle modifier" into google and reading the stuff that falls out.

here's the first hit i got:
http://writing123.com/day/days-1-5/past-participles

that is pretty good.

P.SThanks a lot Ron and MGMAT for all the videos!

you're welcome.

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your reply ,

However, I still have doubts on this :(

In this sentence, "as evidenced by..." describes "recent study" or "game industry"? I believe that as "game industry" is object of preposition "as evidenced by..." hence should describe "recent study".

Also, I went through the link you have shared on past participle modifiers. However, I got lost in the explanations probably because of the grammar jargon. Could you please explain it in your own words? I find it far more helpful to go through your explanations instead of looking at grammar books/guides.

I have my GMAT coming up in two weeks, it would be really helpful if you can guide me on this!

Regards,

[aniruddha601]

I have a question on concept of "ellipse", I guess that's what it is referred to as where few things are understood and omitted in the following structure.

This is a question from OG12 89, I believe its in GMAT prep software as well. There has been a discussion on this in the following thread, however couldn't get the explanation I was looking for

Link to discussion-
post75036.html?sid=4bb5fba083ede75aaf38b864d70c4ad8#p75036

Hi Ron/Stacey,

For option c
Is it possible that maintaining is understood in "as much as maintaining paved roads do (and here do stands for costs)?

[jlucero]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your reply ,

However, I still have doubts on this :(

In this sentence, "as evidenced by..." describes "recent study" or "game industry"? I believe that as "game industry" is object of preposition "as evidenced by..." hence should describe "recent study".

Also, I went through the link you have shared on past participle modifiers. However, I got lost in the explanations probably because of the grammar jargon. Could you please explain it in your own words? I find it far more helpful to go through your explanations instead of looking at grammar books/guides.

I have my GMAT coming up in two weeks, it would be really helpful if you can guide me on this!

Regards,

A recent study indicates that the powerful effects of random reinforcement, as evidenced by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry, are no longer limited to casino patrons, test subjects, and stock market investors

A study indicates that... (this is the main clause)

...the powerful effects of random reinforcement are no longer limited to X, Y, and Z. (the is the second clause)

the powerful effects of random reinforcement (noun) is the thing that is given evidence by the multi-million dollar collectible game industry.

Also, asking a question about a link to a broad topic won't get much of a response here. Do you have a more specific question or a link to ask about something that's giving you trouble?

[jlucero]

I have a question on concept of "ellipse", I guess that's what it is referred to as where few things are understood and omitted in the following structure.

This is a question from OG12 89, I believe its in GMAT prep software as well. There has been a discussion on this in the following thread, however couldn't get the explanation I was looking for

Link to discussion-
post75036.html?sid=4bb5fba083ede75aaf38b864d70c4ad8#p75036

Hi Ron/Stacey,

For option c
Is it possible that maintaining is understood in "as much as maintaining paved roads do (and here do stands for costs)?

Per forum rules, please keep one question or concept per topic. If you have a specific question about the other topic, please ask the question there. All of the instructors are looking through all of the different forums, so asking a question about a different topic will only take longer to get your question answered.