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esledge
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Re: Re:

by esledge Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:22 pm

JbhB682 Wrote:
RonPurewal Wrote:if you say "when + PAST PARTICIPLE", then this automatically applies to the SUBJECT of the clause to which it's attached.

if i say
iron accumulates rust when submerged in water
then it's the iron, not the rust, that's submerged in water.

this strikes choice (d), since the SUBJECT is "recently documented examples", not "mice" as required.
Hi - is this only for "when" or other relative noun modifiers like who/in which/where / whom / which also ?

If only "when" - just curious, why is "when" so different compared to the other relative modifiers..
"When" is unique because it only functions as an adverbial modifier or as a conjunction. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=when+definition

Adjectives provide what, how many, which one, how big, what shape, where, etc. information about nouns. Adverbs provide when, why, how, where, etc. information about verbs. So note that "which" can only apply to a thing, but "where" (for example) can apply to a thing or an action:

The house where we lived in the 1990's is for sale again. ("where" modifies "the house," identifying which house is for sale.)
To continue his training through the winter, he ran where the snow had melted. ("where" modifies "ran," telling where he did the action.)

So "when" can describe verbs, and by extension, the subject attached to them (as Ron's "iron accumulates...when submerged" example above shows), or can serve as conjunctions. I think the "when" in (D) below is not acting as an adverb, because there is no verb in "the brain growth of mice," so if that phrasing is acceptable at all (I'm not sure it is), maybe the "when" is acting as a conjunction (again, I'm not sure).

JbhB682 Wrote:Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

(D) the brain growth in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries' neurons when they
(E) brain growth in mice that are placed in a stimulating environment or an increase in neurons in canaries that
In any case, since "when" never describes nouns, we know "mice when placed in a stimulating environment" doesn't make sense. My concern is that "growth" is also a noun...though one that suggests action, so it makes better sense that "brain growth" happens "when (the mice are) placed in a stimulating environment." All of this uncertainty would make me mark the modifier in (D) with a squiggle (that's my notation for not loving a choice, but not having a solid reason to eliminate yet).

After marking (D) with a squiggle, I'd check the rest of it, looking for flaws: The "they" seems to refer to canaries who learn new songs, but "canaries' " is an adjective to the noun "neurons." The pronoun has no antecedent, and that eliminates (D).

JbhB682 Wrote:I have read in other situations, the object of a preposition cannot be a subject so I am surprised in option E - the that modifier in red can refer to the object of a preposition and not "brain growth" in option E
I think the "rule" that you were applying--the object of a preposition cannot be a subject---is either too strict or misapplied here. "Mice" are the modified noun in (E), but they aren't strictly a subject (of a main clause). It would indeed be wrong to say something like:

Wrong: ...brain growth in mice are running in a maze.

But that's not what (D) has.
Emily Sledge
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Re: Re:

by JbhB682 Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:08 am

esledge Wrote:"When" is unique because it only functions as an adverbial modifier or as a conjunction. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=when+definition

Adjectives provide what, how many, which one, how big, what shape, where, etc. information about nouns. Adverbs provide when, why, how, where, etc. information about verbs. So note that "which" can only apply to a thing, but "where" (for example) can apply to a thing or an action:

The house where we lived in the 1990's is for sale again. ("where" modifies "the house," identifying which house is for sale.)
To continue his training through the winter, he ran where the snow had melted. ("where" modifies "ran," telling where he did the action.)

So "when" can describe verbs, and by extension, the subject attached to them (as Ron's "iron accumulates...when submerged" example above shows), or can serve as conjunctions. I think the "when" in (D) below is not acting as an adverb, because there is no verb in "the brain growth of mice," so if that phrasing is acceptable at all (I'm not sure it is), maybe the "when" is acting as a conjunction (again, I'm not sure).



Hi Emily - thank you for responding. Below is the list of noun modifiers in Chapter 4 (Manhattan guide)

which | that | who | whose | whom | where | when | in which

From this list above - it seems like that | where | when CAN be adverbial as well (i.e. conjunction)

Are these three in blue the only one's that can be adverbial in nature whereas "who/ whose/ which/ in which" CANNOT BE adverbial in nature ?
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Re: Re:

by esledge Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:55 pm

esledge Wrote:"When" is unique because it only functions as an adverbial modifier or as a conjunction. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=when+definition
First, let me correct myself: I previously said that "when" can only be adverbial modifier or conjunction, but it can also be a noun modifier as you (and chapter 4 of the strategy guide) note, as long as it refers to a time.

JbhB682 Wrote:Hi Emily - thank you for responding. Below is the list of noun modifiers in Chapter 4 (Manhattan guide)

which | that | who | whose | whom | where | when | in which

From this list above - it seems like that | where | when CAN be adverbial as well (i.e. conjunction)
Yes to "where/when," but I don't think "that" can be used as an adverbial modifier. "That" can be used about a million different ways (slight exaggeration), but I can't find any adverbial modifier uses. The strategy guide puts it this way:

"The words where and when can be noun or adverbial modifiers (and the test doesn’t typically make you distinguish). The word where can be used to modify a noun that is a place, such as area, site, state/province, or country...However, where cannot modify a metaphorical place, such as a condition, situation, case, circumstance, or arrangement. In these cases, use in which rather than where."

The strategy guide discusses "that" on the previous page:

"The word that can also signal a noun modifier—but it doesn’t always. A noun followed immediately by the word that signals a noun modifier. A verb followed immediately by the word that usually signals the more complex sentence structure subject–verb–THAT–subject–verb (see the Sentence Structure chapter for more)."

The subject–verb–THAT–subject–verb structure is NOT an adverbial modifier situation, or even a modifier at all. In this case, the "THAT-subject-verb" part acts like a noun phrase that is the subject of the first verb (the one before the "that"):

My boss thinks that I attended the meeting.
--> "that I attended the meeting" is an idea--it's the thing my boss thinks--and an idea is a noun.
--> My boss thinks (something). Something = a noun = "that I attended the meeting."

So, "that" can be used as a noun modifier and this other structure above, which is NOT an adverbial modifier. There's a couple other ways you can use "that" in a sentence: as a determiner (I want that cookie) or as a pronoun (His biography of the general is selling more copies than that by Marvin.) Again, none of these are adverbial modifiers.

JbhB682 Wrote:Are these three in blue the only one's that can be adverbial in nature whereas "who/ whose/ which/ in which" CANNOT BE adverbial in nature ?
This part is true, though I'd lump "that" into this list, as noted above.
Emily Sledge
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ManhattanGMAT