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RonPurewal
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by RonPurewal Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:55 am

martelena Wrote:At first, I thought that the choice A had the parallelism


a parallel structure with "and" wouldn't make sense here, because these two descriptions are not separate and independent. (in the structure "x and y", the "x" and "y" should be two separate, relatively independent things.)
when you first read the sentence, you should notice that the second description -- the description about a bunch of stuff frozen from top to bottom -- is elaborating on, or illustrating, the first description (too cold to support life). therefore, for the sentence to make sense, the second part should be written as a modifier of the first part.

But then I figured out that in that case we wouldn't need comma after "to support life", so I ruled out A mostly on that basis. Was I at least partially correct?


the gmat doesn't test punctuation, so you shouldn't worry overly much about issues of punctuation.

For example, would be such sentence correct (as awkward as it is)?
"Jupiter's moon Europa has long been with surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees Fahrenheit considered far too cold to support life and with 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom."

thanks in advance


no, that's still very incorrect.
first, those structures shouldn't be parallel in the first place; see my explanation above.
second, you've turned "considered far too cold..." into a modifier that is modifying ... nothing that makes sense. (if that construction is a modifier, then the only thing that it can logically modifier is europa.)
third, the sentence is also unidiomatic in a couple of ways, but i will refrain from discussing those because gmac has announced that it doesn't test random idioms anymore.

--

a reminder:
don't try to fix the sentences!

even though this section of the test is called, ironically, "sentence correction", you do not need to be able to fix the sentences; you only need to be able to select the correct answer choice from the choices given.
trying to fix the sentences is an irrelevant skill set; if you do too much of this, it will distract you from the skill set that you actually need. moreover, most users' attempts to fix sentences create numerous other errors (like the three new errors mentioned above), many of which are outside the scope of the gmat.

if you want extra practice using correct constructions, DO NOT rewrite the current sentences; instead, make your own (much simpler) examples that use those constructions.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by Borja Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:18 pm

Ron,

sorry for bringing up this issue again but I am not able to see clearly why C) is wrong in spite of your explanation.

I see "Europa has long been considered too cold and has water thought to be frozen." (Parallel)

I do agree with the fact that those two things are not 100% logically parallel. I mean, the consideration is not actually something that Europa has (in terms of possesion). But I wouldn´t be able to find a reason to dismiss this choice.

I see it even more clear put the other way round: "Europa has water thought to be frozen and has long been considered too cold."

Many thanks!
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by tim Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:28 am

the problem is the word "as", which you left out in your transcription but which the original poster acknowledged as a fatal mistake almost immediately at the beginning of the thread. please read the posts carefully before you ask a question that has been answered already..
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by amit1234 Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:10 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
cesar.rodriguez.blanco Wrote:OA is B.
What is wrong with the other answer choices?


brief explanations:

(a)
"and with ..." isn't parallel to anything.
AND sets up parallelism, so there must be something to which "with..." can be parallel (other prepositional phrase, or other adverbial modifier). there is no such thing.

(b)
correct.
this is a type of modifier with which you should be familiar. (i have no idea what it's called - sorry)
here's another example:
john, his arms flailing in the wind, called out desperately for help.

note that the presence of frozen water SUPPORTS the claim that europa is "far too cold to support life", so it should be a MODIFIER.
this is done here.
it's inappropriate to place these two things in parallel with AND.

(c)
AND is rhetorically inappropriate (see above).
"considered as" is unidiomatic here.

(d)
this is not a sentence. (the clause before "and" doesn't have a verb; "considered" is a participle, not a verb, here)
"considered as" is unidiomatic here.

(e)
i don't think "considered to be" is wrong, although it's wordier than just "considered..."
this sentence has no verb at all! the only verb forms present are participles and infinitives, none of which is eligible to be the main verb of the sentence.


Ron, How to identify verb and participles? Most of the times i fail to identify these in parallel constructions. Also how to gauge whether verb form is eligible to be verb or participle?
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by RonPurewal Mon May 07, 2012 4:03 am

getmydream Wrote:how to gauge whether verb form is eligible to be verb or participle?


if you can't tell verbs and participles apart, then that's symptomatic of a much deeper problem: you aren't thinking about what the words actually mean when you read them.
past-tense verbs and participles have meanings that are essentially complete opposites -- the former suggests that the noun actually does the action, while the latter suggests an action done to the noun -- so, if you can't reliably tell them apart, then you must not be thinking much (if at all) about the meaning of the words.

for instance:
robots made (= verb) today's breakfast --> this is something that the robots did.
millions of robots made (= participle) in korea are shipped to the u.s. each year --> this is something done to the robots.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by amit1234 Wed May 09, 2012 6:20 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
getmydream Wrote:how to gauge whether verb form is eligible to be verb or participle?


if you can't tell verbs and participles apart, then that's symptomatic of a much deeper problem: you aren't thinking about what the words actually mean when you read them.
past-tense verbs and participles have meanings that are essentially complete opposites -- the former suggests that the noun actually does the action, while the latter suggests an action done to the noun -- so, if you can't reliably tell them apart, then you must not be thinking much (if at all) about the meaning of the words.

for instance:
robots made (= verb) today's breakfast --> this is something that the robots did.
millions of robots made (= participle) in korea are shipped to the u.s. each year --> this is something done to the robots.


Thanks Ron for your text. sorry if I am asking some insane questions...
Is this similar to active and passive voice constructions?

active voice :robots made today's breakfast.
passive voice : today's breakfast was made by robots. ->here made is participle.

so is that past participle are used in passive voice constructions only?
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by RonPurewal Thu May 17, 2012 10:19 am

getmydream Wrote:so is that past participle are used in passive voice constructions only?


essentially, the meaning of the past participle is passive, yes.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by jmuduke08 Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:00 pm

forgive me ron as I still am unclear. In choice B, I understand the last piece of the sentence beginning with 'its' is a modifier. So is the structure of this sentence: Modifier, sentence, Modifier? I tried to click the absolute phrase link to see more examples but it must be outdated so just want to make sure I have a grip on these types as they seem to trip me up.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by tim Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:32 pm

that looks correct. i suspect you may have further questions on this one but am unable to tell what they may be. feel free to follow up on this one if you like and we'll be glad to help you further..
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by reservoir11 Sat May 25, 2013 11:44 am

I did not select option B thinking that the pronoun "its" (possessive) refers to "Jupiter's" (possessive noun). Can you please explain if this is the right rule to apply or not.

Thanks
Raj
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by RonPurewal Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:26 pm

reservoir11 Wrote:I did not select option B thinking that the pronoun "its" (possessive) refers to "Jupiter's" (possessive noun). Can you please explain if this is the right rule to apply or not.

Thanks
Raj


The sentence is about Europa, so, logically, "its" means Europa's.
What rule?

That's the correct answer, by the way -- so, if your "rule" tells you to eliminate it, then your "rule" is wrong.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by noor_dalhousie Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:45 pm

Hi Ron

I did not select B because I thought "its 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom" is an independent clause and should be accompanied by a conjuntion.

Please advise. GMAT next week :(
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by tim Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:28 am

Sorry, that's not an independent clause.
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by lindaliu9273 Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:59 pm

Hi instructors,

Thank you for explaining the parallel structure here. I learn new things here. But I just want to double check that the parallel in C, "has long been ..." and "has..." correct if we don't consider whether the two parts are separate and independent.

I notice that Ron mentioned "it" in B refers to Europa, but should it usually refer to the closest non-human singler noun? Here should be "life". I like to check the antecedent when I see a pronoun to see whether it's clear. But I find this method sometimes makes me confused because pronouns sometimes don't strictly follow the rule.

Thanks a lot!
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Re: SC: With surface temperatures estimated at minus 230 degrees

by RonPurewal Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:57 pm

lindaliu9273 Wrote:Hi instructors,

Thank you for explaining the parallel structure here. I learn new things here. But I just want to double check that the parallel in C, "has long been ..." and "has..." correct if we don't consider whether the two parts are separate and independent.


There is no such thing as "If we don't consider the meaning..."

Mechanics and intended meaning work together as a team; mechanical structure is determined by intended meaning. (Grammar is just a vehicle for delivering an intended meaning!)

Without considering sense vs. nonsense, it's impossible to judge"”"”or even to define"”"”whether a construction is "correct".