so that such that so as to

[saintjingjing]

hi mentor, Ron, tim or others
I want to ask something. hope your can help me.
291. Factory outlet stores, operated by manufacturers, are usually located miles from downtown and regional shopping centers so as not directly to be competitive against department stores in the same trading area.
(A) so as not directly to be competitive against
(B) in order for them not to have direct competition with
(C) so that they do not compete directly with
(D) in order that they are not directly competitive against
(E) for the purpose of not competing directly with )
C correct answer
from prep
first, I want to ask in C, whether so that is a adverb or a modifer? becuase so that( not so...that) only modify verb. But it this part, before so that, there is no verb. So I firstly think C is wrong


and,second,
I do noy know what is the difference about so that, so... that and such... that, and such as to, so as to
even I reviewed a lot of SC, but could you help me , en give me a summary about these .

by the way, I give what examples about these (so that, so...that, such that, such..that)impressed me a lot
1)A rule of correspondence between two sets such that there is a unique element in the second set assigned to each element in the first set ( so that)
2)many examples about so...that,so I do not write here
3)such severe stomach discorders that...( I remember clearly from Prep and a SC from CAT)( such ...that)

thanks in advance

[RonPurewal]

hi mentor, Ron, tim or others
I want to ask something. hope your can help me.
291. Factory outlet stores, operated by manufacturers, are usually located miles from downtown and regional shopping centers so as not directly to be competitive against department stores in the same trading area.
(A) so as not directly to be competitive against
(B) in order for them not to have direct competition with
(C) so that they do not compete directly with
(D) in order that they are not directly competitive against
(E) for the purpose of not competing directly with )
C correct answer
from prep
first, I want to ask in C, whether so that is a adverb or a modifer? becuase so that( not so...that) only modify verb. But it this part, before so that, there is no verb. So I firstly think C is wrong

this instance of "so that" is a subordinating conjunction.

it also illustrates the meaning of "so that..." -- namely, that construction is placed in front of a clause that describes the intention or goal of some action.
e.g., James started weight training so that he could become stronger.

1)A rule of correspondence between two sets such that there is a unique element in the second set assigned to each element in the first set ( so that)

i don't understand.
it sounds like you got this from some discussion about math; this sort of thing will definitely not apply in SC.

2)many examples about so...that,so I do not write here

"so ADJ/ADV that ..." is
* used to emphasize the extreme quality of ADJ/ADV
* followed by some consequence of that extreme quality
e.g.
Don is so tall that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.

3)such severe stomach discorders that...( I remember clearly from Prep and a SC from CAT)( such ...that)

similar to #2, except it's usually such + ADJ + NOUN + that.

[saintjingjing]

hi mentor, Ron, tim or others

1)A rule of correspondence between two sets such that there is a unique element in the second set assigned to each element in the first set ( so that)

i don't understand.
it sounds like you got this from some discussion about math; this sort of thing will definitely not apply in SC.

.

en, in fact, the example from longman, and if you think it is not okay, I can give the other example here:
1)her interest with him is such that she governs him absolutely.

2)the format of the meeting was such that everyone could ask a question

[akhpad]

Hi Ron

Thanks
1.
James started weight training so that he could become stronger.
so X that Y => Y is a subordinate clause that explains or describes the intention or goal of action performed in main clause.
I got it.

As Mentor such as Ron is here, lets discuss about others as well.

2.
so + adj/adv + that
such + adj + noun + that
Don is so tall that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.
Don is such a tall boy that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.=> is it correct?

3.
The box is so heavy that I can’t lift it.
It is such a heavy box that I can’t lift it.
what is the difference in meaning.

4.
She worked hard and she made herself ill.
She worked so hard that she made herself ill.
She worked so hard as to make herself ill.
Is it correct? What is the change in meaning?

5.
"so as to" and "so + adj + as to"
I called him in order to invite him.
I called him to invite him.
I called him so as to invite him.
What is the change in meaning?

6.
I study so that I can get a good grade.
I study so as to get a good grade.

I study so hard that I can get a good grade.
I study so hard as to get a good grade.

What s the change in meaning?

I hope that, after this discussion, we will clear about construction and meaning as well.

"so as to" indicates purpose, and "so that" also indicates purpose. THEN the difference is just in construction. I have a major confusion here.

In OG, it is because ambiguity in meaning.
Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children. => INCORRECT
Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers to provide workers with unpaid leave so that they can care for sick or newborn children. => CORRECT

[RonPurewal]

en, in fact, the example from longman, and if you think it is not okay, I can give the other example here:
1)her interest with him is such that she governs him absolutely.

2)the format of the meeting was such that everyone could ask a question

* what is "en"?

* i know that some people write sentences like these, but no such sentence has ever appeared in an official gmac problem, nor do i expect one to.

[RonPurewal]

akhpad, oh my gosh that's a lot of questions.
most of these are distinctions i've never consciously thought about, even though i've used a lot of them in my writing, so we can think of this as exploring together! (seriously)

2.
so + adj/adv + that
such + adj + noun + that
Don is so tall that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.
Don is such a tall boy that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.=> is it correct?

i think your example here is fine, although it's unnecessary; if the emphasis is on a quality described by an adjective ("tall" in this example), then it's more compact and stylistically better to write "so + adj + that".

you are more likely to see the second of these constructions if the quality itself is embodied by a noun rather than by an adjective. for instance, Tom is such a hermit that he hasn't left his house in two years.
in that sentence, the quality is actually described by a noun ("hermit"), so there is no option to use the "so + adj + that" construction.

3.
The box is so heavy that I can’t lift it.
It is such a heavy box that I can’t lift it.
what is the difference in meaning.

exactly the same situation as #2.
if you wrote the latter sentence as "it is such a monolith that i can't lift it", then, better.

4.
She worked hard and she made herself ill.
She worked so hard that she made herself ill.
She worked so hard as to make herself ill.
Is it correct? What is the change in meaning?

the first one -- the one with just "and" -- is incorrect unless you are actually implying that these are two separate, independent things. for instance, if this woman worked really hard and then drank alcohol until she began to vomit, the first sentence would make sense. if working hard is the cause of her illness, then the first sentence is incorrect.

the second and third constructions are a lot like each other; i don't think that gmac will ask you to distinguish between them. (if you see a split like that in a problem, then scour the choices for other differences.)
nevertheless, i think i can give you some sort of explanation: in general, you don't use so ADJ as to VERB unless the VERB describes some sort of state/condition. i.e., if the verb is an action verb, this construction generally isn't used.
for instance,
i am so ugly as to be viscerally repulsive to women. --> this works, because the verb "to be" describes a state/condition.
i am so ugly as to repel women on sight. --> you generally wouldn't see this in good writing, as "repel" is an action verb; the sentence would probably be written as i am so ugly that i repel women on sight.

rest assured that the above discussion is MUCH more subtle/writerly than anything that will actually be tested on this exam.

5.
"so as to" and "so + adj + as to"
I called him in order to invite him.
I called him to invite him.
I called him so as to invite him.
What is the change in meaning?

very interesting.
there's not really a difference in the first two. in general, "in order to" works better in longer sentences -- sentences in which there are so many words that "to" by itself would lead to a confusing/unreadable sentence.

"so as to" is an interesting construction. i don't think that gmac likes it very much -- i've never seen it in an officially correct answer -- but i think the main distinction is that it's used to describe indirect intentions.
for instance, the example above isn't great because you are calling this person directly to invite him, so you should use one of the earlier two versions.

on the other hand, consider the following: Joe bought a gym membership so as to become more attractive to women.
this is what i mean by indirect intention. obviously, the act of buying a gym membership itself is not going to make joe instantly more attractive to women (women do not swoon over a man's gym membership card). instead, there are plenty of implied intermediate steps between "by a gym membership" and "be more attractive"; the use of "so as to" implies that there are such intermediate steps in the process.

once again, this is a very writerly difference. i think it's fun to try to explicate it -- i've definitely never thought about these things consciously before -- but i can guarantee that you will not be tested on this kind of difference.

6.
I study so that I can get a good grade.
I study so as to get a good grade.

same distinction as above.
if you are talking about getting a good grade on the actual exam you are studying for, then this is a direct intention, and so the first sentence works better.
if you are talking about getting a good grade in the entire course, then this is an indirect intention, and so the second sentence is better.

once again, this kind of difference will never be tested on the gmat. however, if it ever helps you become a professional writer, then you can thank me. /:

I study so hard that I can get a good grade.
I study so hard as to get a good grade.

remember that "so + adj + that" indicates some sort of extreme quality. so, the first of these sentences probably doesn't make sense, unless getting a good grade is presented as some sort of extreme, unusual achievement.
for instance, let's say there's a class called "math X" at some university, and that this class is so difficult that only one in every thousand students even gets a passing grade.
in that case, "i study sooooo hard that i can actually get a good grade in math X" makes sense. on the other hand, if this is just a sentence about normal intentions, then it's wrong.

the second one doesn't make sense; see my notes about "so ____ as to ____" above.

Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children. => INCORRECT

this is a whole different issue. in the construction "so as to", there is no change of subject, and so there's an implication that the subject is the same as the subject of the previous clause/action.

that's a big issue here, because the only subjects of actions in the previous clauses are "congress" and "certain employers". therefore, the sentence is implying that one of these two entities is actually going to care for sick or newborn children! not good.
the sentence needs to be written in a way that changes the subject.

[wangjieava23]

Ron and other instructors, could you give more explain about choice A? Why A is wrong ?
Is it because "outlet stores do not want to compete with department stores " is their direct intention?

[RonPurewal]

Ron and other instructors, could you give more explain about choice A? Why A is wrong ?

fyi, this isn't how you write questions in english. the correct way to write this question is, "Why is A wrong?"
your wording would work in a statement -- "Here is why A is wrong" -- but not in a question.

--

* "directly" is talking about competition, so it should be placed closer to "compete"/"competitive"/etc.

* "be competitive" is unnecessarily wordy compared to "compete". (note that you should NEVER judge "wordiness" in a single answer choice; you should always judge it relative to other answer choices.)
also, "be competitive" isn't accurate in terms of meaning, either. the intended meaning is "compete", which means, well, to compete.
"to be competitive" is more about personality traits ("My sister is very competitive") than about actual competition. i.e., "x competes" implies that x actually competes, while "x is competitive" implies only that x wants to compete (but may or may not actually get the chance).

[xiaolanjingheleaf]

akhpad, oh my gosh that's a lot of questions.
most of these are distinctions i've never consciously thought about, even though i've used a lot of them in my writing, so we can think of this as exploring together! (seriously)

2.
so + adj/adv + that
such + adj + noun + that
Don is so tall that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.
Don is such a tall boy that he can reach the top shelf without any effort.=> is it correct?

i think your example here is fine, although it's unnecessary; if the emphasis is on a quality described by an adjective ("tall" in this example), then it's more compact and stylistically better to write "so + adj + that".

you are more likely to see the second of these constructions if the quality itself is embodied by a noun rather than by an adjective. for instance, Tom is such a hermit that he hasn't left his house in two years.
in that sentence, the quality is actually described by a noun ("hermit"), so there is no option to use the "so + adj + that" construction.

3.
The box is so heavy that I can’t lift it.
It is such a heavy box that I can’t lift it.
what is the difference in meaning.

exactly the same situation as #2.
if you wrote the latter sentence as "it is such a monolith that i can't lift it", then, better.

4.
She worked hard and she made herself ill.
She worked so hard that she made herself ill.
She worked so hard as to make herself ill.
Is it correct? What is the change in meaning?

the first one -- the one with just "and" -- is incorrect unless you are actually implying that these are two separate, independent things. for instance, if this woman worked really hard and then drank alcohol until she began to vomit, the first sentence would make sense. if working hard is the cause of her illness, then the first sentence is incorrect.

the second and third constructions are a lot like each other; i don't think that gmac will ask you to distinguish between them. (if you see a split like that in a problem, then scour the choices for other differences.)
nevertheless, i think i can give you some sort of explanation: in general, you don't use so ADJ as to VERB unless the VERB describes some sort of state/condition. i.e., if the verb is an action verb, this construction generally isn't used.
for instance,
i am so ugly as to be viscerally repulsive to women. --> this works, because the verb "to be" describes a state/condition.
i am so ugly as to repel women on sight. --> you generally wouldn't see this in good writing, as "repel" is an action verb; the sentence would probably be written as i am so ugly that i repel women on sight.

rest assured that the above discussion is MUCH more subtle/writerly than anything that will actually be tested on this exam.

5.
"so as to" and "so + adj + as to"
I called him in order to invite him.
I called him to invite him.
I called him so as to invite him.
What is the change in meaning?

very interesting.
there's not really a difference in the first two. in general, "in order to" works better in longer sentences -- sentences in which there are so many words that "to" by itself would lead to a confusing/unreadable sentence.

"so as to" is an interesting construction. i don't think that gmac likes it very much -- i've never seen it in an officially correct answer -- but i think the main distinction is that it's used to describe indirect intentions.
for instance, the example above isn't great because you are calling this person directly to invite him, so you should use one of the earlier two versions.

on the other hand, consider the following: Joe bought a gym membership so as to become more attractive to women.
this is what i mean by indirect intention. obviously, the act of buying a gym membership itself is not going to make joe instantly more attractive to women (women do not swoon over a man's gym membership card). instead, there are plenty of implied intermediate steps between "by a gym membership" and "be more attractive"; the use of "so as to" implies that there are such intermediate steps in the process.

once again, this is a very writerly difference. i think it's fun to try to explicate it -- i've definitely never thought about these things consciously before -- but i can guarantee that you will not be tested on this kind of difference.

6.
I study so that I can get a good grade.
I study so as to get a good grade.

same distinction as above.
if you are talking about getting a good grade on the actual exam you are studying for, then this is a direct intention, and so the first sentence works better.
if you are talking about getting a good grade in the entire course, then this is an indirect intention, and so the second sentence is better.

once again, this kind of difference will never be tested on the gmat. however, if it ever helps you become a professional writer, then you can thank me. /:

I study so hard that I can get a good grade.
I study so hard as to get a good grade.

remember that "so + adj + that" indicates some sort of extreme quality. so, the first of these sentences probably doesn't make sense, unless getting a good grade is presented as some sort of extreme, unusual achievement.
for instance, let's say there's a class called "math X" at some university, and that this class is so difficult that only one in every thousand students even gets a passing grade.
in that case, "i study sooooo hard that i can actually get a good grade in math X" makes sense. on the other hand, if this is just a sentence about normal intentions, then it's wrong.

the second one doesn't make sense; see my notes about "so ____ as to ____" above.

Congress is debating a bill requiring certain employers to provide workers with unpaid leave so as to care for sick or newborn children. => INCORRECT

this is a whole different issue. in the construction "so as to", there is no change of subject, and so there's an implication that the subject is the same as the subject of the previous clause/action.

that's a big issue here, because the only subjects of actions in the previous clauses are "congress" and "certain employers". therefore, the sentence is implying that one of these two entities is actually going to care for sick or newborn children! not good.
the sentence needs to be written in a way that changes the subject.

helpful questions and helpful answers! thanks a lot!

[jnelson0612]

Great to hear that you were helped!

[RonPurewal]

It's not every day that I receive a thank-you for a post that's almost three years old... but, you're welcome!

[FanPurewal]

i think B&E are right, and C is just better than B&E. so OA is C

am i right?

actually, i can not find any errors in the B&E.

[FanPurewal]

sorry for bumping

hi instructors

i do not think there are some absolute errors in B AND E.
in B:in order (for them) to...
in E: for the purpose of doing something

both of these idioms are right, am i right?

sorry, i still do not know why B AND E are wrong...
please clarify , thanks :)

[RonPurewal]

In choice E, the idiom is wrong. You do things with a certain purpose (not "for" a purpose).

Second, there's a fundamental problem of meaning. Namely, "not competing..." isn't a purpose.

Hopefully, you understand what I mean. If not, here's my best shot at an explanation.

• A purpose is an active intention. You're trying to DO something.

• "Not doing something" isn't an active intention.

• If this idea were phrased in an active way——i.e., with the purpose of avoiding competition with xxxx——then it would make sense.

[RonPurewal]

If you still don't see the difference, consider not being prosecuted vs. avoiding prosecution.

• The latter of these (avoiding prosecution) is an active endeavor.
It actually requires that you DO things. (e.g., destroying evidence; intimidating witnesses; taking advantage of legal loopholes; etc.)

• The former isn't. If you do the things above, then you're "not being prosecuted"——but, "not being prosecuted" applies equally well to things like sleeping, dancing, eating pizza, etc. (These activities definitely do not quality as "avoiding prosecution", though.)

Hopefully that's a sufficient illustration.
Avoiding prosecution is actually an ACTIVE GOAL. "Not being prosecuted" is something that basically just is, unless you're actually being prosecuted.