USE OF WHICH MODIFIER

[shans.bgp]

Hi Ron, I have listened to recording of your lectures on the use of 'which' and the use of 'and' (2nd lecture). I noticed two sentences but difference in your interpretation. Can you explain?
1. I took pictures in 1995,which are so adorable that .....(you said which refers to 1995 as it cant jump over). hence the sentence is wrong.
2. The electronics company has unveiled what it claims is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world,which is as long as handheld computer....(you said which refers to camcorder and usage can jump over prep phrase)

I am confused. if we see context, what which refers to is clear- pictures and camcorder. But why grammatically the 1st cant jump over and 2nd can, both being NOUN+PREP PHRASE

[Willy]

Hi Ron, I have listened to recording of your lectures on the use of 'which' and the use of 'and' (2nd lecture). I noticed two sentences but difference in your interpretation. Can you explain?
1. I took pictures in 1995,which are so adorable that .....(you said which refers to 1995 as it cant jump over). hence the sentence is wrong.
2. The electronics company has unveiled what it claims is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world,which is as long as handheld computer....(you said which refers to camcorder and usage can jump over prep phrase)

I am confused. if we see context, what which refers to is clear- pictures and camcorder. But why grammatically the 1st cant jump over and 2nd can, both being NOUN+PREP PHRASE

nice question. Let me try it with my limited knowledge.

Basic structure of such sentences is

Noun1+prep+Noun2+comma+Which

In example 1, "IN 1995" is not describing/modifying PICTURES.

In example 2, "IN THE WORLD" is describing/modifying "THE SMALLEST NETWORK DIGITAL CAMCODER"

have a look at another example from the same lesson -

I took the pictures of dog, which are so adorable.

In this sentence "which" refers to "pictures" not dog.

So in the sentences where Noun2 is describing/modifying Noun1, in those sentences WHICH can jump and refer to Noun1

am i right? Experts please ?

[shans.bgp]

Why 1991 is not modifying pics?
It tells about when pics were taken, giving more information about the pictures. so same logic applies here too

[Willy]

Why 1991 is not modifying pics?
It tells about when pics were taken, giving more information about the pictures. so same logic applies here too

Another great question friend. We surely need advice from experts but let me again try with my limited knowledge.

1. We need to jump when grammar or intended meaning demands so.

e.g. In example

I took pictures of dog, which are so adorable.

Here, logic demands "which" refers to "pictures" i.e. VERB (are) in WHICH part.

2. Another thing, in Noun1+prep+Noun2+comma+which

(Prep+Noun2) must act as one unit.

e.g.
I took (pictures of dog), which are so adorable.

Here, (pictures of dog) is acting as one unit. "Of dog" part is directly describing/modifying the pictures.

Now lets see the other (incorrect) example

I took (pictures in 1995), which are so adorable.

Here (Pictures in 1995) is not acting as one unit.

Yes, surely "in 1995" is a modifier and says "when I took pictures" but it is not directly modifying the pictures.

Experts please help. :)

[kapilnitt]

Hi,

I'm not expert, but let me also try. I think i understood RON's point.

Here are two examples:

1. I took pictures in 1995: Ask yourself what is the role of "in 1995" in the sentence. If i tell you to make a question instead of "in 1995" you will write = when
So actually the prepositional phrase is modifying or referring to the verb i.e. when the picture was taken. It is not modifying pictures.
2. I took pictures of my dog: Here if i ask you to make question for the replacement of the "of my dog", you will come up with: "what "of my dog? Clearly here the phrase is modifying pictures.

Hope it makes some sense.
Expert please advise.

[shans.bgp]

Hi,

I'm not expert, but let me also try. I think i understood RON's point.

Here are two examples:

1. I took pictures in 1995: Ask yourself what is the role of "in 1995" in the sentence. If i tell you to make a question instead of "in 1995" you will write = when
So actually the prepositional phrase is modifying or referring to the verb i.e. when the picture was taken. It is not modifying pictures.
2. I took pictures of my dog: Here if i ask you to make question for the replacement of the "of my dog", you will come up with: "what "of my dog? Clearly here the phrase is modifying pictures.

Hope it makes some sense.
Expert please advise.

Hi,

I think the prepositional phrase is the modifier and both tell us something more about the pictures. one says the pics of dog, the 2nd says the pics taken in 1995.
Both modify the pictures.
I read one of the posts in which one of the MGMAT experts has said that it is rare that 'which' will jump over prep phrase+noun2. The exception is when all the answer choices make nonsense according to touch rule. Did I understand the point correctly?

[Willy]

Hi,

I'm not expert, but let me also try. I think i understood RON's point.

Here are two examples:

1. I took pictures in 1995: Ask yourself what is the role of "in 1995" in the sentence. If i tell you to make a question instead of "in 1995" you will write = when
So actually the prepositional phrase is modifying or referring to the verb i.e. when the picture was taken. It is not modifying pictures.
2. I took pictures of my dog: Here if i ask you to make question for the replacement of the "of my dog", you will come up with: "what "of my dog? Clearly here the phrase is modifying pictures.

Hope it makes some sense.
Expert please advise.

Hi,

I think the prepositional phrase is the modifier and both tell us something more about the pictures. one says the pics of dog, the 2nd says the pics taken in 1995.
Both modify the pictures.
I read one of the posts in which one of the MGMAT experts has said that it is rare that 'which' will jump over prep phrase+noun2. The exception is when all the answer choices make nonsense according to touch rule. Did I understand the point correctly?

I believe YES, you get it. But lets wait till experts stamp on our posts!

[kapilnitt]

Hi,

Now when shans's problem is almost solved, i've got one statement to check for accuracy (This just came thru, while i was writing something). The sentence is as given below:

"XYZ is a best selling book in the world, which turned around the life of many people."

If the sentence is correct, it is one more example of "which" jumping over a prep phrase to refer the distant noun.

Experts comment will make the matter more clear.

Thanks & Regards,
Kapil

[Willy]

Hi,

Now when shans's problem is almost solved, i've got one statement to check for accuracy (This just came thru, while i was writing something). The sentence is as given below:

"XYZ is a best selling book in the world, which turned around the life of many people."

If the sentence is correct, it is one more example of "which" jumping over a prep phrase to refer the distant noun.

Experts comment will make the matter more clear.

Thanks & Regards,
Kapil

Kapil, your example is correct.

You can even look at ques. no. 26 of OG12. In that question, correct answer choice also jumps the prep. phrase!

[Willy]

Hi,

Now when shans's problem is almost solved, i've got one statement to check for accuracy (This just came thru, while i was writing something). The sentence is as given below:

"XYZ is a best selling book in the world, which turned around the life of many people."

If the sentence is correct, it is one more example of "which" jumping over a prep phrase to refer the distant noun.

Experts comment will make the matter more clear.

Thanks & Regards,
Kapil

Kapil, I believe your example is correct. (though not sure but I also think that "HAS" must come after WHICH because in the 1st part we are using IS)

You can even look at ques. no. 26 of OG12. In that question, correct answer choice also jumps the prep. phrase!

[kapilnitt]

Hi Willy,

You are right, "has" should come after "which".

Well, Now we just need an expert to say that our discussion was on right track.

[jlucero]

This discussion is great and this is exactly why we created these forums- to get you guys to help one another out. Your points are all mostly on, but let me clarify the original examples:

I took pictures (in 1995- modifier describing the verb "took": when did I take the pictures), MODIFIER

The electronics company has unveiled (what it claims is) the smallest network digital camcorder (in the world- modifier describing the adjective "smallest": the smallest where), MODIFIER

These sentences can be rephrased as such:

I took X in 1995.

X has unveiled Y.

Notice that "in 1995" describes the verb, but "in the world" describes the object of the sentence. In other words, "the smallest network digital camcorder in the world" is a thing, but "pictures in 1995" isn't.

That's why the first sentence's final modifier (after the comma) refers to 1995, but the second one refers to the entire "smallest network digital camcorder in the world."

Final point: this is all great stuff to learn, but take it from a person who never would have spent this much time thinking about such issues on the GMAT (or even if I took another GMAT today)- if you notice an obvious split on these sorts of things, use the split, but some answer choices will have all of the comma + modifiers separated from the word it is describing by a prepositional phrase. If that's the case, accept that it's ok and look for other (easier) splits to work with.

[shans.bgp]

Thanks jlucero
But I didnt get you here- "but some answer choices will have all of the comma + modifiers separated from the word it is describing by a prepositional phrase. If that's the case, accept that it's ok and look for other (easier) splits to work with."
please elaborate

[RonPurewal]

Thanks jlucero
But I didnt get you here- "but some answer choices will have all of the comma + modifiers separated from the word it is describing by a prepositional phrase. If that's the case, accept that it's ok and look for other (easier) splits to work with."
please elaborate

for an example of what joe is talking about, see the correct answer to #29 in the OG13 sentence correction chapter (= #26 in the OG12 sentence correction).

[lingao0423]

But can I say," I took pictures of my dog, which is so adorable."?
Is refers to my dog.

Thanks!