Diagram

[fubar65]

Hi all, just found this forum and it's great. Does anyone have the setup to this game?

[aileenann]

Hi and thanks for your question! This is a somewhat non-standard game, which makes it especially interesting I am attaching my setup, but please remember that if yours differs, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. I'd certainly welcome alternate suggestions from readers as well if they found a better way to diagram!

[nazu.s.shaikh]

Couple of questions for this game.

For Q9 I diagrammed the following :

M1 M2
H = R H= ?
J= N J=?
S= R/N S= N.
T= R

M2 can wear either NY or NR ... if M2 wore a

c) Red hat then it would wear a navy jacket
d) Yellow hat then it would wear a navy jacket
e) Yellow jacket than a navy hat...

Each of these could work.. couldn't they? What am I missing? I read over the constraints and nothing popped out at me saying that both mannequin needed to wear ( together, not separate) all three colors.

Also is Q11, a continuation of Q10's information, or are they separate? Am I to assume that there need be 4 red articles of clothing

If not then here is how I diagrammed it.

M1 M2
RT
_H NH
_J RJ
_S NS

Initially when I worked on it I had I canceled out A C and E leaving only B & D and with these two answers M1 can wear either a RH or RS... it works either way


Lastly ( sorry!) Q13 I wrote out all the possibilities for M1 and M2, M1 (RN/RY ) and M2 (NR/NY) , which didn't really help actually just made me even more confused.

[aileenann]

Hey there! I'll take your questions one a time.

Q9

This question adds the requirement that M1 wears the N jacket. This means that M1 is only going to wear N and R as its colors (because it only gets 2, and R is always one of them).

Similarly, let's think about M2's colors. M2 always wears a navy skirt, so that is always one of her two colors. Also, since her jacket and hat can't match, one of those has to be navy as well.*** Pay attention, this is a not-so-obvious inference that people sometimes miss. It is this that makes all the difference - we actually know exactly what color hat M2 has to wear! With this insight, I'd recommend that you go back and take a look at those answer choices.

In the meantime, to your other related question, you are absolutely right that nothing requires that the mannequins wear all three colors combined - if you can make them get by with only 2 colors, that's perfectly correct!

Q11

Q11 is not a continuation of Q10. I have never seen an LSAT question on LG which continues a previous question (unless I've forgotten, of course!), and if they were to do such a thing they'd have to make it really clear that that's what they were doing. the LSAT is tough, but it's also fair!

I think your confusion about this question rests on the same inference that you might have missed for Q9 (this is a tough inference, so don't be too troubled about missing it). The hat and the jacket are related - one of them has to match the skirt since they cannot match each other and since each mannequin only gets 2 colors.

I hope this helps. Please do follow up if you have more questions or comments!

Good luck

[nazu.s.shaikh]

You're explanation of

Also, since her jacket and hat can't match, one of those has to be navy as well.*** Pay attention, this is a not-so-obvious inference that people sometimes miss.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the inference to be made here that I had previously written in the original post. I shouldn't say infer here actually but I think I understand that rule that either the hat or the jacket for M2 have to be navy as the skirt was navy and we cant have more than 2 colors.

If M2 wore a...

Answer choice C) Red hat then it would wear a navy jacket
d) Yellow hat then it would wear a navy jacket
e) Yellow jacket than a navy hat...

I'm still not understanding neither question although I feel as if I had made a bit of progress for Q11 than Q9 as I am down to two choices for Q11 ( B and D) so for the purpose of keeping this focused, if I can find where my mistake for Q11 is I can help it direct me to find an answer for Q9.

For Q11 this is how I have worked it out.

If M2 is wearing a red jacket then M2 would also wear navy hat and skirt.

That much I got down for sure.

M1 then is wearing a red tie, giving us one color already. Therefore A C and E can be crossed off because we it could be either or, yellow or navy. Red is the only definitive we have. Now as to whether M1 wears a red hat or skirt. The skirt has to be the same color as the jacket or the hat, that I understand. Is the color of the either hat or jacket the determinant factor for the color of the skirt or can it work both ways? The color of the skirt can determine the color of the hat and jacket?

( Did that make sense?)

Leaving only B and D I am having trouble crossing one of them off.

B - red hat.

M1 : red tie, red hat, navy/yellow jacket, navy/yellow/red skirt

D- red skirt

M1: red tie, navy/yellow/red hat, navy/yellow/red jacket, red skirt.

From what I gathered of what you said for Q11 that ( and please correct me if i'm wrong) but the hat and the skirt have to be the same color? Is this always true? Can't the jacket and the skirt be the same color?


Thank you!

[aileenann]

Thanks for following up! I will preface my explanation below by telling you that if you are an Atlas student, you can watch a recording of an online class that has dealt with this game in entirety (I believe it's session 11, but in any case it's in one of the last 3 classes in a section that treats Advanced Games).

Let's dig into this. There's a lot in your post, so I am just going to take it in the order you wrote

Please correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the inference to be made here that I had previously written in the original post. I shouldn't say infer here actually but I think I understand that rule that either the hat or the jacket for M2 have to be navy as the skirt was navy and we cant have more than 2 colors.

For Q9, I pointed out this inference because, at least following the chart you had posted, you had not taken this into account. Specifically, once you realize that M2 has to have either a N hat or jacket, you realize additionally that it actually has to have the N hat because the N jacket has already been taken by M1! So really the only thing we don't know about M2 is what color the jacket of M2 will be. Similarly, for M1, I think we know a lot - jacket is N, therefore hat (so as not to match) must be R as must the skirt (because M2 has the N skirt already). So we are looking at:

M1: red tie, red hat, navy jacket, red skirt
M2: navy hat, unknown color jacket, navy skirt

With this in mind, let's go through all the answer choices:

(A) & (B) are both ruled out because M1 has already been fully assigned, and furthermore, because M1 cannot wear yellow since she is already wearing the 2 colors of red and navy.
(C) & (D) are both out because M2 is wearing the navy hat and so cannot wear any other color hat.
(E) is our answer! M2 could wear any color jacket but navy (this will in effect be the 2nd color), so a yellow jacket is just fine!

Moving right along, let's look at Q11! You said:

From what I gathered of what you said for Q11 that ( and please correct me if i'm wrong) but the hat and the skirt have to be the same color? Is this always true? Can't the jacket and the skirt be the same color?

I'm sorry if I was unclear! I intended to say only that for each mannequin EITHER the hat OR the jacket has to match, but you are exactly right that we don't know which one it has to be.

Q11 tells that us M2 wears the red jacket, which means both that we know its two colors (R&N) and also that we know its full layout:

M2: navy hat, red jacket, navy skirt

We also know that M1 can't have the red jacket now, so she'll have to wear the red hat (since one of these has to be red, since one of each must be one of each of the two colors). Therefore for M1 we know:

M1: red tie, red hat, unknown jacket, unknown skirt

So basically all the uncertainty lies with M1. But what we do know about M1 is that she must wear the red hat, and that is answer choice B. Thus, if we've made the correct inferences, there is no need to check the other answers. If we didn't, however, I'm sure we still would have been able to eliminate each of the other answers by coming up with combinations that disproved the answer choice and hence meant that it wasn't false.

I certainly hope this helps. As always, I welcome more comments or questions from you. I'm so glad you've been following up about this.

[interestedintacos]

I did this game with a diagram similar to the one posted, but I went a few minutes over the time allotted. Would you say it's a good idea to come up with a few templates for this game?

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Unfortunately, this one doesn't lend itself so well to using frames. There are a couple of places where you have an either/or situation. For example, mannequin 1 must wear either the red skirt or else the yellow skirt. The problem arises though when you realize that running both of these scenarios, leads you to no other inferences.

Sometimes you just have plug your way through the game. It's good to look for opportunities to frame, unfortunately this is not one of them.

Good question!

[interestedintacos]

Yeah, I tried running frames off of that choice with mannequin 1, and it got messy--too many possibilities, and it didn't seem to help much in answering the questions.

I guess there's nothing you can do other than put in the work and mental processing for each question.

[aaframian]

Does it say anywhere in the setup that the two mannequins cannot have the same color shirt, jacket or hat? I don't see this anywhere, but for mannequin 1 the options for skirt are red and yellow only? Why cant it have a navy skirt?

Thanks in advance

[interestedintacos]

It says there are 10 articles of clothing, 3x3 plus 1 red tie. If one mannequin is wearing the red skirt, for instance, then the other can't because there's only one red skirt.

[theonlyrij]

Hey!

Is there any possible way to reupload the diagram on here? It seems that the diagram disappeared.

Thanks in advance!

[hgaladzhyan]

I don't see the diagram either..

[mlbrandow]

I've attached my diagram for this game here:



Figure 1.0 is the main diagram I used, and Figure 1.1 is the hypothetical I used for each of Q9-Q13. I place a premium on being able to quickly and accurately draw a small hypo, and so the less unnecessary information it contains, the better.

In this diagram, the red represents what I didn't draw, but instead simply visualized. To be safe, I purposefully wrote RT in every single hypothetical I encountered so that I wouldn't forget about it.

In all, using this method the game took me 10:22 (-0).

I would like to know a faster way if anyone has one.

Hope this helps!

[timmydoeslsat]

In all, using this method the game took me 10:22 (-0).

I would like to know a faster way if anyone has one.

Your set-up looks good and good job of getting all of them correct. The only thing I would change if that were my diagram is to really show that H and J cannot be the same. I see that you have the not block with H and J, but during the test that can be forgotten. I would draw, out to the side of H and J, a arrow going both ways with a slash through it or something.

When I just did this game, I really noticed the importance of the red tie for mannequin 1.

Notice what happens with 1.

We have the red tie there and the skirt for 1 is either red or yellow because 2 has the navy one.

We know we cannot have all 3 colors on a mannequin, so we can draw a conclusion of what happens if 1 has the yellow skirt: it cannot contain anything navy now.

1
H:
J:
S: Y
RED TIE

So we either have a RY vertical block or a YR vertical block.

At this point, I notice that with the red skirt for 1 there would be too many opportunities to note.

In terms of timing, this is a long game. 7 questions is a lot for a single game. You did a fine job of timing on this one. The first game in this section would have given you such allowance of time on this game.

I will go over the optimal look of time in this one however.

#7: Normal valid hypo elimination question. Should not take over a minute.

#8: Global question of what could be true in this game. A strong understanding of the rules should give a right answer to this one in about 30 seconds.

A) No way, the red tie 1 wears would give us all 3 colors. Eliminate.

B) H and J have to be difference colors. Eliminate.

C) Hmm, that would mean 1 only has red for the tie. But we know that H and J have to be different colors. How can they be different colors without red? That's right, it would require all 3 colors being used to accomplish that. Eliminate.

D) No way, H and J have to have different colors. Eliminate.

Circle E.

#9: Local rule giving us 1 with a J: N

We have our second color already for 1. We are stuck with N and R

H:
J: N
S: R/Y
RED TIE

We know that yellow cannot be used. We know that the skirt is R and the same is true of the hat.

H: R
J: N
S: R
RED TIE

We can eliminate answers A, B, C with this work. We are down to D and E. We have to look at 2 for these answers.

H:
J: R/Y
S: N

This is all I know for 2 right now. However, I can clearly see that (D) cannot happen. If 2 has a yellow hat, then the J has to be red. This now involves all 3 colors. Eliminate.

Circle E.

#10:

All four reds are used. So I know that they are including the red tie, and I just dismiss that. So we are talking about red H, J, and S.

I think about the logistics of such a feat.

H _ _
J _ _
S _ N
RT

S on 1 is either R or Y. I think to myself, what happens if the skirt on 1 is Y. That would force 3 of those 4 blanks to be red, which would FORCE a HJ same color combination. I now know that the skirt must be red for 1.

I now have 2 reds to distribute among those 4 blanks. I now decide to look at the answer choices to see what MUST be true. Not a whole lot except for the skirt deduction I made.

I see E and know it must be true. 2 already has navy. For it to have yellow would mean it cannot have red. And then you would be left with 1 having HJ both being red.

#11: Local question of 2 J: R

This is the first question of big uncertainty.

H: _ _
J: _ R
S: _ N
RT

Well, we know that the h in 2 will be N.

H: R/Y N
J: N/Y R
S: R/Y N
RT

I decide to address the uncertainty with 1 by focusing on the H and J.

If I made the J navy, the hat would have to be red. This eliminates.

But if I made the J yellow, the hat would also have to be red! This is our answer.

#12) This is just like question 10!

If all 3 yellows are used, we need to make a decision on our 1 skirt.

It is either R or Y. If it is R, then we have 3 Y's to distribute in 4 blanks.

H: _ _
J: _ _

And to do such a thing would require a HJ block of yellow, thereby violating a constraint.

This means that the 1 skirt must be yellow to alleviate that problem. We now have our second color in 1. No navy items can be worn. We also know that exactly 1 yellow item will be worn on 1 and exactly 1 yellow item on 2.

A) No navy in 1. Eliminate.
B) Looks possible. Skip.
C) Must be false. Eliminate.
D) No way. That would give 2 all three colors. We know that 2 will have exactly 1 item of yellow and it already contains navy. So no red can be used. Eliminate.
E) Same problem as D. Eliminate.

Circle B.

#13) Local rule 1 Skirt = 2 Jacket.

So run 2 hypotheticals, one with 1S-2J as R and the other with them both Y. Only two options available.

You will quickly see that both hypotheticals require 2 wearing the n hat.