User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
This post thanked 23 times.
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Fri Dec 31, 1999 8:00 pm

This is a tricky question! Let's start by getting to the core:

Shrinks should never do therapy on talk shows.

Why?

Because doing that will almost always result in not high quality therapy.

Basically, talk show therapy sucks, so don't do it.

What's the gap? Hard to see one, but think about this:

Doing pottery outside leads to very earthy-looking pots. So, don't do it.

Who says earthy-looking pots are to be avoided?

What about this:

Doing pottery outside leads to less than high quality pots. So don't do it!

Who says we shouldn't do things that don't lead to high quality pots?

(E) helps fill this gap.

(A) is too extreme. We don't need to assume that shrinks should never entertain a broad audience. What about at a bar mitzvah?

(B) is a convoluted premise booster. It explains, perhaps, why giving therapy on a talk show will lead to bad advice, but we don't need to support that premise - it's fine on it's own. If you negate (B), we learn that the context is not more important than the nature of the advice. So what? Couldn't the context still be really important?

(C) is super tempting - but in the end, it's too extreme. For one, it broadly addresses giving psychotherapy. The problem is about what psychotherapists should do. We don't need to outlaw some amateur giving potentially bad psychotherapy to her friend - we only need that psychotherapists shouldn't do it.

Furthermore, we don't need to outlaw psychotherapy that has even a slight chance of being bad - we need to outlaw the kind that the question mentions: nearly always less than high quality.

Since people struggle with (C) and (E) a lot, here's some more about those:

The difference between the two is indeed that (C) states that you shouldn't provide help if there's ANY chance of it being bad (low quality), while (E) is less strong, stating that you should not provide this help if it's PROBABLY going to be bad.

The textbook way to look at this is that the question is asking for a necessary assumption -- in other words, an assumption without which the argument cannot make sense. In general, when between two similar answers for a necessary assumption question, choose the weaker answer. Why though?

To think about it quite simplistically, if I have to pay for a suit that costs $350 (tax included), and I ask which of the following amount is necessary for me to buy that suit - $350 or $400 -- we'd choose $350. The $400 will cover it and then some, so it's sufficient, but it is not necessary.

Another way to think about it is that if you negate each of them, only one destroys the argument. In the above analogy, if I say that I have less than $350, I cannot buy the suit, but if I say I have less than $400, I may or may not be able to purchase the suite.

With the actual LSAT question, the argument is, to paraphrase: psychotherapists should never provide psychological help on talk shows since if they do, they'll be expected to entertain the audience, and entertaining the audience is almost always incompatible with providing high quality psychotherapy.

The gap is that the argument assumes that psychotherapists should not provide psychotherapy if such help is "nearly always incompatible with providing high-quality help". It's actually not outrageous to think that this assumption does not have to be true. [Perhaps it's OK to provide low quality help to help more people; or perhaps bad help is better than no help at all.]

Remember that an assumption, if negated, should destroy the argument. If we negate (C), we find that it's OK to provide psychotherapy if there's ANY chance that it will be less than high quality. Well, this doesn't really affect the argument since we're dealing with a situation in which that help is LIKELY to be bad.

If we negate (E), we find that it's OK to provide psychotherapy when it's LIKELY to be bad. That goes directly against what the argument seems to assume! If that's true, why would the psychologist argue that psychotherapists shouldn't do talk-show therapy?!

Another way to think about this is that, in effect, (C) would mean that you should NEVER give psychotherapy since there's always some chance it will be less than high-quality. Can a psychotherapist guarantee that EVERY session will be high quality? (C) goes too far, and while it would make the argument technically valid, that assumption goes above and beyond what is needed, so it's not necessary.

Analogously, if I say that you should not take Valium because it's likely to make you drowsy. I'm assuming that you shouldn't take things that are LIKELY to make you drowsy. I'm not assuming that you should avoid any drug which has ANY chance of making you drowsy -- that might be every drug ever invented! If I were to say that the rule is you shouldn't take ANYTHING that might make you drowsy we would indeed arrive at the same conclusion, but it's overkill. Though perhaps I'm beating a dead (or drowsy) horse at this point. :lol:

Does that clear it up?


#officialexplanation
 
zhangstagangsta
Thanks Received: 0
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 14
Joined: November 13th, 2009
 
 
 

Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by zhangstagangsta Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:21 am

Hi, I got the answers down to between C and E, but I am not sure why E is the right answer. It seems like the differences come down to the degrees: "any chance" and "unlikely". I am wondering if someone could elaborate on this and/or explain why E is the correct answer.
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
This post thanked 3 times.
 
 

Re: PT 56, S2, Q 20 Psychotherapists who attempt to provide...

by noah Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:02 am

Let's dig into the negation of (C): Psychotherapy should SOMETIMES be provided when there's even the slightest chance that the psychotherapy will be less than stellar quality.

Now, before you read on, consider what argument this would destroy.

It would destroy this argument: There's a slight chance this psychotherapy will not be stellar, so we should never do it.

But, the argument we're facing is this: It's almost assured that this psychotherapy will not be stellar, so we should never do it.

So, the challenge is to see that the negation of (C) doesn't actually destroy the second argument, the one we're actually facing.

Let's use this analogous argument:

It's almost positive that the dog is rabid, so don't play with it.

(C) One should not play with an animal if there is even the remote chance it is rabid.

(E) One should not play with an animal if it is likely to be rabid.

Which one is necessary? It's pretty clear, intuitively, that we need (E), and that (C) is overkill.

Now, let's negate:

(C) It's OK to play with an animal if there is a remote chance it is rabid.

(E) It's OK to play with an animal if it is likely to be rabid.

With negated (C), we now know it's OK to play with an animal with a small chance of rabidity. But, is it OK to play with an animal that is likely to be rabid? Maybe it's not.

Now, apply that thinking to the psychotherapist's argument. Even if it's OK to provide psychotherapy if there's a slight chance it'll suck (negated (C)) doesn't mean that we should do it if it's likely to suck.

Does that clear up the issue for you?
 
joseph.m.kirby
Thanks Received: 55
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 70
Joined: May 07th, 2011
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by joseph.m.kirby Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:56 am

For me, the difficulty of choosing between (C) and (E) relates to the subtle difference in meaning between "any chance" and "unlikely."

To my understanding, "any chance" could be a .000001% probability of occurrence: i.e., if there's a .0000001% probability of rain, you should take an umbrella. (too strong)

Whereas for something to be "unlikely," it would have to have a +51% probability of not occurring: i.e., if it is unlikely that it will not rain (+51% chance), you should take an umbrella. (softer)

I hope this logic is sound... :ugeek:
 
sumukh09
Thanks Received: 139
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 327
Joined: June 03rd, 2012
 
 
trophy
Most Thanked
trophy
First Responder
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by sumukh09 Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:40 am

Are principle necessary assumptions questions that common? Anytime I see a principle question I automatically assume them to be asking for a sufficient assumption.
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:16 pm

sumukh09 Wrote:Are principle necessary assumptions questions that common? Anytime I see a principle question I automatically assume them to be asking for a sufficient assumption.

I don't think it's very common (but I'm not sure). However, the important thing is that you noticed it's a necessary assumption question. It's yet another reason not to jump to conclusions when you see the word "principle" - it could be one of 3 question types! (And probably we could see a S/W question stem with "principle" in it.)
 
theanswer21324
Thanks Received: 0
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 27
Joined: August 09th, 2013
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by theanswer21324 Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:24 pm

Great explanations - thank you!

For future reference, if this was a sufficient assumption question, how would it have been phrased differently from it is in this question? I think that I've become so accustomed to associating "conclusion to be properly drawn" to sufficient assumption questions that I didn't pay enough attention to the "must be assumed" part.

Thank you for your help.
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
This post thanked 2 times.
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:57 pm

theanswer21324 Wrote:Great explanations - thank you!

For future reference, if this was a sufficient assumption question, how would it have been phrased differently from it is in this question? I think that I've become so accustomed to associating "conclusion to be properly drawn" to sufficient assumption questions that I didn't pay enough attention to the "must be assumed" part.

Thank you for your help.

There's a few ways to phrase SA stems. In short, for this one, you'd want to see "must be" replaced with "if".
User avatar
 
Mab6q
Thanks Received: 31
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 290
Joined: June 30th, 2013
 
 
 

Re: PT 56, S2, Q 20 Psychotherapists who attempt to provide...

by Mab6q Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:38 pm

noah Wrote:Let's dig into the negation of (C): Psychotherapy should SOMETIMES be provided when there's even the slightest chance that the psychotherapy will be less than stellar quality.

Now, before you read on, consider what argument this would destroy.

It would destroy this argument: There's a slight chance this psychotherapy will not be stellar, so we should never do it.

But, the argument we're facing is this: It's almost assured that this psychotherapy will not be stellar, so we should never do it.

So, the challenge is to see that the negation of (C) doesn't actually destroy the second argument, the one we're actually facing.

Let's use this analogous argument:

It's almost positive that the dog is rabid, so don't play with it.

(C) One should not play with an animal if there is even the remote chance it is rabid.

(E) One should not play with an animal if it is likely to be rabid.

Which one is necessary? It's pretty clear, intuitively, that we need (E), and that (C) is overkill.

Now, let's negate:

(C) It's OK to play with an animal if there is a remote chance it is rabid.

(E) It's OK to play with an animal if it is likely to be rabid.

With negated (C), we now know it's OK to play with an animal with a small chance of rabidity. But, is it OK to play with an animal that is likely to be rabid? Maybe it's not.

Now, apply that thinking to the psychotherapist's argument. Even if it's OK to provide psychotherapy if there's a slight chance it'll suck (negated (C)) doesn't mean that we should do it if it's likely to suck.

Does that clear up the issue for you?


With all due respect to all of the time you have spent trying to help understand this question, i must say that I disagree with your analysis that C is wrong due to the explanation you gave above. Maybe I'm seeing things in the wrong manner so maybe you can clarify.

I agree with your reasoning in the first response you provided on this thread- that C is too broad because we are only concerned with psychotherapist. However, if the stimulus extended to everyone, as C does, I believe it would be correct. When i negate C, I get: Psy should be provided if there is ANY chance that the therapy might be of less than high quality, as you did as well.

If there is ANY chance, that means it encompasses the NEARLY ALWAYS we get from the conclusion. And as such, it would seem to me that it would kill the argument.

Am I seeing this wrong? I choose answer choice E here and I know why it is correct but I think it's important to understand the negation element in C and E so I'm spending more time on it then I probably should.

Thanks as always for the help!
"Just keep swimming"
 
gaheexlee
Thanks Received: 10
Elle Woods
Elle Woods
 
Posts: 55
Joined: May 27th, 2014
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by gaheexlee Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:40 pm

I had a quick question about the strong language in (E).

I had eliminated it because of the "never." Necessary Assumption question usually require weaker, broader language. However, is the use of strong language condoned here because the conclusion itself is very strong (and also uses "never")?
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
This post thanked 1 time.
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:47 am

gaheexlee Wrote:I had a quick question about the strong language in (E).

I had eliminated it because of the "never." Necessary Assumption question usually require weaker, broader language. However, is the use of strong language condoned here because the conclusion itself is very strong (and also uses "never")?

Good question--and you figured it out. Be wary of strong answers for a necc. assumption question, but don't rule them out simply because of that.

Notice that your idea about gravitating towards softer answers is exactly why (E) is correct instead of (C).
User avatar
 
Mab6q
Thanks Received: 31
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 290
Joined: June 30th, 2013
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by Mab6q Sun May 17, 2015 4:37 pm

Quick question:

If C had said: Psychological help should never be provided in a context in which there is any change that the therapy might be of less high quality.

Would it be necessary?
"Just keep swimming"
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Tue May 19, 2015 5:50 pm

Mab6q Wrote:Quick question:

If C had said: Psychological help should never be provided in a context in which there is any change that the therapy might be of less high quality.

Would it be necessary?


Do we NEED there to be no chance of meh therapy whatsoever? Is it OK if some therapist in Tuscon is providing it in a building with an old AC unit that is humming and slightly annoying his patients?
 
Djkrd92
Thanks Received: 1
Vinny Gambini
Vinny Gambini
 
Posts: 3
Joined: August 16th, 2015
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by Djkrd92 Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Thanks for the explanation! It was very helpful but I just have a couple of questions:

First, I thought we shouldn't use the negation trick in Sufficient Assumption questions? I thought those were for Necessary Assumption because negating a sufficient assumption does not destroy the argument.

For example:

1. John studied for the LSAT, therefore, John will earn a perfect score.
Sufficient Assumption: Studying is the only thing you have to do to earn a perfect score.
Negation: Studying is not the only thing you have to do to earn a perfect score
-This doesn't destroy the argument. John could still achieve a perfect score even if it's the only thing you have to do. Perhaps John also needed to sacrifice a small goat to the LSAT gods. Based on the simple premise, he could've done that!

However:
Necessary Assumption: John registers for the LSAT and is able to take it.
Negation: John forgets to register and is unable to take the LSAT! (sorry John!)
- This wrecks the argument. There's no way he can get a perfect score because he's not even allowed to take it.


My second question is: wouldn't it be better if a sufficient assumption is much more encompassing? In other words, wouldn't be better if you overkill?
For example: John got a perfect score on his LSAT, therefore, he should not boast on forums.
- Wouldn't it be better to say "One should never boast on forums" because it's so much more encompassing? If this was true, there is no way John should be able to boast on ANY forum. This would be better than simply saying "One should not boast on LSAT forums after achieving a perfect score". Although both would do the trick, wouldn't it be "safer" to take the stronger, and more encompassing rule?

I think that's the trouble i found here when narrowing my choices down to either C or E. C just seems much more encompassing and therefore, there would be no way that the Psychologist's statement wouldn't be included in it.
User avatar
 
noah
Thanks Received: 1192
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 1541
Joined: February 11th, 2009
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by noah Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:06 pm

Djkrd92 Wrote:First, I thought we shouldn't use the negation trick in Sufficient Assumption questions? I thought those were for Necessary Assumption because negating a sufficient assumption does not destroy the argument.

This is a neccesary assumption question: "Which one of the following...must be assumed..."

Djkrd92 Wrote:My second question is: wouldn't it be better if a sufficient assumption is much more encompassing? In other words, wouldn't be better if you overkill?
For example: John got a perfect score on his LSAT, therefore, he should not boast on forums.
- Wouldn't it be better to say "One should never boast on forums" because it's so much more encompassing? If this was true, there is no way John should be able to boast on ANY forum. This would be better than simply saying "One should not boast on LSAT forums after achieving a perfect score". Although both would do the trick, wouldn't it be "safer" to take the stronger, and more encompassing rule?


Sufficient assumptions can be overencompassing (alert, Noah has just invented a new word!) but they do not have to be. In fact, there's a point at which a sufficient assumption becomes so overencompassing that it becomes un-LSAT like (as in, it does get you from the premise to the conclusion, but it really doesn't test your ability to see a gap. By the way, "perfect" assumptions, ones that are both necc. and suff. and which are usually the right answer when the question stem is something such as "Which of the following is assumed?" will be the least overencompassing. In other words, they'll stick tightly to the argument gap.
 
contropositive
Thanks Received: 1
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 105
Joined: February 01st, 2015
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by contropositive Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:09 pm

At first I picked C because I was running out of time during timed test and did not feel like going through all the answer choices. During review I realized what makes B and C wrong (in addition to the explanation above). B and C are a paraphrase of each other and I learned that picking an answer that makes another answer choice correct is not going to be the right answer and secondly. B and C are talking about context of the help. However, the argument is concerned about satisfying the demand of entertaining people, which is more of a "manner" than "context" therefore E wins
 
ldfdsa
Thanks Received: 2
Vinny Gambini
Vinny Gambini
 
Posts: 20
Joined: April 13th, 2014
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by ldfdsa Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 am

All the Assumption questions are about scale. A->B, ie. if A, than B, A has a bigger scale than B, the right Answer has a smaller scale than other wrong answers.
Here, the therapist don't do it in a scale of [ almost bad, bad ], and C has a scale of [ all ], so, C is not right. E is not a ideal answer, 'case it has a not specific scale, yet, it says the same thing as the premise: [ likely bad, bad ] ≈ [almost bad, bad ]
This is my two cents.
 
JesseR524
Thanks Received: 1
Vinny Gambini
Vinny Gambini
 
Posts: 2
Joined: October 19th, 2018
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by JesseR524 Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:31 pm

For me it came down to C and E but I chose E because the stimulus says that "psychotherapists who attempt provide psychotherapy..." not "psychotherapists who provide therapy."

C doesn't use the word "attempt." E does. E more closely mirrors the language in the stimulus.

Just my two cents....I didn't really think that hard about any of the other stuff mentioned above, I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing...
 
LaraF343
Thanks Received: 0
Vinny Gambini
Vinny Gambini
 
Posts: 2
Joined: February 11th, 2019
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by LaraF343 Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:22 pm

Just to add my thoughts to this discussion:

The conclusion is about how psychotherapists should never provide psychotherapy on talk shows.

Answer choice C is sufficient because it says that psychotherapy should never be provided if it's less than high quality, but doesn't specify by whom. A psychotherapist falls under that category, but so does a TV personality or a professor. So it isn't necessary.

Meanwhile answer choice E is necessary because it focuses on the group being talked about, psychotherapists.

Does that make sense as an explanation?
User avatar
 
ohthatpatrick
Thanks Received: 3808
Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch
 
Posts: 4661
Joined: April 01st, 2011
 
 
 

Re: Q20 - Psychotherapists who attempt to provide

by ohthatpatrick Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:09 am

It's a great distinction to add to the fire, but "psychotherapy" in and of itself doesn't make this sufficient or necessary.

(C) could be a necessary assumption if we said,
"Psychotherapy should not be provided in a context in which it's nearly always impossible to be of high quality"

The author is definitely assuming that.

If I were arguing,
"Don't try to summit Mt. Everest. About 25% of people who do end up dying."

Am I assuming
"People should never try doing something in which there is any chance that they might die?"

Of course not! That's way too strong. That would commit me to counseling people to avoid driving their cars to work or taking an airplane, since there is a nonzero chance of them dying.

My argument about Mt. Everest specifically hinges on the size of the risk. Because 25% of people die, it's a significantly risky activity (even though death isn't "likely").

Similarly, this argument cares about the fact that trying to entertain a broad audience will almost always doom your attempt to provide high-quality help. That's why he thinks it's a bad idea for psychotherapists to do psychotherapy on talk shows.

(C) is such a strong standard, that it would prevent psychotherapists from EVER providing psychotherapy, unless they were 100% sure it was going to be high quality.

Hope this helps.