elina.ayzenberg
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Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by elina.ayzenberg Tue May 31, 2011 9:23 pm

Thanks for the help!

With this one, I can see clearly why E is correct, but am a bit confused about why B would not be an adequate answer choice.

Choice B bases the acceptance of the claim on having a certain number of unsuccessful attempts to prove a claim as sufficient for accepting the claim, and the conclusion states that "since the failed attempts to produce such a proof have been so numerous...". Is it because B states that this is the "only factor" relevant?
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by bbirdwell Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:10 pm

absolutely! the argument does not assume that this is the *only* factor, just one. "Only" is a very important word on the LSAT, learn to give it importance.
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by secretad22 Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:44 pm

I got this question right. Like the original poster, I clearly understand that (E) is expressing the flaw in this argument.

However, I had trouble explaining to myself why I could eliminate (B).

The core of the fortune-teller's argument is this:

Has not been scientifically proven that ESP does not exist

+

Numerous failed attempts to prove no ESP.

= There are ESP capable people.

For the fortune teller to conclude that there are ESP capable people only because of the fact that numerous attempts failed to prove otherwise, is the fortune teller not implying that this is the only relevant factor?

This is the only factor mentioned in the argument and the teller makes a concluding statement about it.
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by timmydoeslsat Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:18 pm

I would like to bump this for clarification on the above post. It is obvious that the flaw is the invalid claim of "lack of evidence = truth of opposite" but what about choice (B)?

The teller does not explicitly say that it is the only relevant factor, but by the structure of the argument, it seems to be.
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by bbirdwell Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm

is the fortune teller not implying that this is the only relevant factor?


The teller does not explicitly say that it is the only relevant factor, but by the structure of the argument, it seems to be.


No. It's simply one factor that the author believes is sufficient to warrant the conclusion. We've no idea whether the author ever believes that other factors are important.

If I say "My food was tasty, therefore I enjoyed my breakfast," this doesn't mean that food is the ONLY thing that makes me enjoy breakfast. I could follow that argument with "There was live music at the breakfast place, so I enjoyed my meal there."

The existence of one sufficient factor does not preclude others unless explicitly stated.
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by zainrizvi Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:39 pm

If (B) didn't say "only", would it be a flaw of the argument? I don't think it would be because you still need (E) - (E) is the core of the flaw.

Thoughts?
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by maryadkins Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:42 pm

If (B) didn't say "only," it would just be saying that the argument takes for granted that failed attempts are relevant to deciding whether or not to accept the claim. Okay... but is that a flaw? Not really. The issue is that they're taken as sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion, not that they're relevant at all.

You're right that (E) gets at this in the way that (B) wouldn't, even if "only" were removed.
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by wj097 Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:15 am

maryadkins Wrote:If (B) didn't say "only," it would just be saying that the argument takes for granted that failed attempts are relevant to deciding whether or not to accept the claim. Okay... but is that a flaw? Not really. The issue is that they're taken as sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion, not that they're relevant at all.

You're right that (E) gets at this in the way that (B) wouldn't, even if "only" were removed.


Isn't it that if you lack something necessary for the argument to work then you are vulnerable to criticism?? I think if you take away the *only* part and say "failed attempts are relevant to deciding whether or not to accept the claim" then this is necessary for the argument and not stating that and merely assuming would be something worth criticizing... thus, not sure why "taking for granted that failed attempts are relevant to deciding whether or not to accept the claim" is not a flaw, though definately weaker than (E)...would be great if someone can verify
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by zainrizvi Wed May 29, 2013 3:43 pm

bbirdwell Wrote:
is the fortune teller not implying that this is the only relevant factor?


The teller does not explicitly say that it is the only relevant factor, but by the structure of the argument, it seems to be.


No. It's simply one factor that the author believes is sufficient to warrant the conclusion. We've no idea whether the author ever believes that other factors are important.

If I say "My food was tasty, therefore I enjoyed my breakfast," this doesn't mean that food is the ONLY thing that makes me enjoy breakfast. I could follow that argument with "There was live music at the breakfast place, so I enjoyed my meal there."

The existence of one sufficient factor does not preclude others unless explicitly stated.


Hmmm.. this makes sense but then I'm a bit confused by something in the Manhattan LR book. On page 226, it has a similar scenario but here it claims that such kind of thinking IS a flaw (i.e. X leading to Y - you are failing to consider other factors that could be involved in determining Y)... any clarification? Perhaps I am misinterpreting the relevance of this....
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims...

by ohthatpatrick Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:49 pm

Let me circle back to a couple of the lingering questions.

There were several posters saying that the only premise in this argument was that "the failed attempts have been so numerous", and that structurally this implies what (B) is saying, that "the number of failed attempts is the only relevant factor".

The "failed attempts have been so numerous" is NOT the only premise.

As one poster wrote ...

secretad22 Wrote:The core of the fortune-teller's argument is this:

Has not been scientifically proven that ESP does not exist

+

Numerous failed attempts to prove no ESP.

= There are ESP capable people.


This person correctly identified the structure, which is
Prem1 + Prem 2 --> Conc

You can tell from the use of "Furthermore" that the author has more than one premise.

The author's most important premise is definitely the first one, (the 'fundamental fact') that NO ONE has EVER proven that ESP does not exist.

The second one is just some additional filler saying, "And, p.s., they've tried a whole bunch of times to do so."

So for this argument, the whole debate over whether "only one premise" implies "it's the only relevant idea" is a moot point. This argument has two premises.

[incidentally, I think the most recent question about Brian's example vs. pg. 226 of LR is a tricky one because Brian's example was a subjective first person argument, so it's kinda hard to talk about falsifying it. We can't really fight the idea that he DIDN'T enjoy breakfast, if he says he did.

If we go a little more third person and say
Bob thought his food was tasty. Therefore, Bob must have enjoyed his breakfast.

Then we are assuming that 'tasty food is sufficient to guarantee enjoyment'. That means we're also assuming 'there are not other factors that would override Bob's tasty food and cause him to NOT enjoy his breakfast' (like bad service ... running into his ex-girlfriend ... thinking the food was overpriced).

Essentially, that argument had to assume that no other factors could PREVENT him from enjoying his breakfast.

It does not have to assume that no other factors WOULD BE SUFFICIENT to guarantee his enjoyment.

And when we say "tasty food is the ONLY relevant factor to enjoying breakfast", we're pulling in both categories of ideas, so that idea is just too strong, too broad to be accurate.]

Another question posed was whether (B) would be valid if the word 'only' were removed.

Since the author mentioned the number of failed attempts as one of his premises, the author clearly is assuming that "the number of failed attempts" IS a relevant factor. So modified-(B) would be saying something accurate.

But remember, accuracy is not the only test of a Flaw answer choice.

To be correct, a Flaw answer choice has to say something
1. true about the argument (did this happen?)
2. relevant to the reasoning gap (is this a reasoning flaw?)

If we read an argument that said:
Bob is left handed. Thus, Bob is clumsy.

and an answer choice said
(B) the author fails to consider that mustard is delicious.

It is TRUE that the author did fail to consider this. BUT, that has nothing to do with the reasoning gap.

However, if we negated modified-(B), we'd get "the number of unsuccessful attempts to prove a claim is NOT a relevant factor", which would Weaken the argument, by denying the author one of his premises.

Naturally, LSAT would never offer us this modified-(B) and (E) at the same time (and if they did, E would win because it's commenting on the more egregious reasoning problem).

Hope this helps.
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by cvfh17 Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:44 pm

I seems clear to me that E is the answer, but what exactly A is saying ??? thank you!
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by uhdang Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:11 am

Had a hard time figuring out reasoning for B) and want to clarify if I am understanding it right. Tell me if I've got this or not.

So, for B)
Although the passage does talk about "the number of unsuccessful attempts to prove a claim", but the stimulus never eludes or states that it is the ONLY factor relevant to whether one should accept that claim. We just have no idea.

Since the conclusion itself it mistakenly concluded from unrelated evidence, the conclusion is unsupported. That's as far as we can find out. Whether the author considered this many unsuccessful attempts to be the only factor or not is not supported, or is nowhere to be found. Since it is not on the right chain of thoughts, this is just an irrelevant answer choice, not a flaw.

For A),
It is a flaw of "overgeneralization." We can't conclude EVERYONE lack certain characteristic from MANY people lacking certain characteristic. Since this question doesn't claim any overgeneralization, this is irrelevant.
"Fun"
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by ohthatpatrick Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:36 pm

Yup, the easiest way to kill off (B) is "only". Any time I read a Flaw answer choice that begins with "takes for granted" or "presumes", I put on my Necessary Assumption hat ... that's what those phrases mean, after all. On Nec. Assump questions, we're super wary of extreme language. The same applies to Flaw answer choices that say what the author assumed / presumed / took for granted.

So "only" would jump out as a huge red flag with (B), and (B) is really contradicted given that the author DID have more than one premise.

=== other answers ===

(A) describes this type of flawed argument:
Many people are colorblind; they cannot distinguish red from orange. Therefore, no one will be able to tell you whether this hat is orange or red.

According to (A), the author's conclusion was "everyone lacks a certain characteristic". The author's actual conclusion is "some people POSSESS a certain characteristic" (some people possess ESP)

(C) for "fails to consider" / "overlooks the possibility", we're putting on our Weaken hat. Does it weaken the argument if some studies reached inaccurate conclusions? What conclusions did the studies reach? We don't know. We know they never PROVED that ESP is fake. So did they reach any conclusion? Did they conclude that ESP is real? We have no basis for assuming that.

(D) "takes for granted" = Necessary Assumption = BEWARE extreme language! The author had to assume that there is NO scientific way to assess ESP? That seems too strong. Would it hurt the author if there IS a scientific way to assess ESP? Not really ... it might even help the author ... it sounds more like ESP exists if we know there's a scientific way to assess it.
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by asafezrati Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:08 pm

ohthatpatrick Wrote:
(A) describes this type of flawed argument:
Many people are colorblind; they cannot distinguish red from orange. Therefore, no one will be able to tell you whether this hat is orange or red.

According to (A), the author's conclusion was "everyone lacks a certain characteristic". The author's actual conclusion is "some people POSSESS a certain characteristic" (some people possess ESP)


Hold on.

Answer choice A states something the speaker does seem to agree with: There is proof that many people lack ESP, but that doesn't say that everyone lacks ESP.

But that isn't a flaw. It's valid logic.
 
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Re: Q8 - Fortune-teller: Admittedly, the claims

by LawrenceR550 Tue May 28, 2024 2:36 pm

asafezrati Wrote:
ohthatpatrick Wrote:
(A) describes this type of flawed argument:
Many people are colorblind; they cannot distinguish red from orange. Therefore, no one will be able to tell you whether this hat is orange or red.

According to (A), the author's conclusion was "everyone lacks a certain characteristic". The author's actual conclusion is "some people POSSESS a certain characteristic" (some people possess ESP)


Hold on. 0

Answer choice A states something the speaker does seem to agree with: There is proof that many people lack ESP, but that doesn't say that everyone lacks ESP.

But that isn't a flaw. It's valid logic.


THANK YOU!

Was hoping somebody would clarify why A is wrong. I had it down to A and E, but ultimately picked A because I thought it felt more context specific, if that makes sense. But double negatives are a nuance in Unproven vs. Proven False flaw. I took "does not establish that everyone lacks" to mean "says that some people have."