Future Perfect Subjunctive?!

[ll2318]

I found this question on a beathegmat thread and am confused.

A historian attempting to predict in the 1870's which nation would take over world leadership from the British probably would have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and been quite wrong.

(A) have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and been
(B) have guessed that it would have been Bismarck's Prussia and he would be
(C) have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and would be
(D) guess Bismarck's Prussia and be
(E) guess that it would be Bismarck's Prussia and would have been

OA is A however I think D makes more sense. This is because the historian is "attempting" to predict so the action is happening in the present. Am I wrong here? Thanks.


I also have a second question. What is the difference between "If" and "Should" ?

1. If present metal prices continue to sharply rise, the value of the
copper in a penny will soon be greater than the face value of the coin.

a. if present metal prices continue to sharply rise,
b. if present metal prices are continuing their sharp rise,
c. should present metal prices continue their sharp rise,
d. continuation of sharply rising metal prices should mean that
e. metal prices' sharp rise continuing should mean that

Thanks!

[RonPurewal]

I found this question on a beathegmat thread and am confused.

A historian attempting to predict in the 1870's which nation would take over world leadership from the British probably would have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and been quite wrong.

(A) have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and been
(B) have guessed that it would have been Bismarck's Prussia and he would be
(C) have guessed Bismarck's Prussia and would be
(D) guess Bismarck's Prussia and be
(E) guess that it would be Bismarck's Prussia and would have been

OA is A however I think D makes more sense. This is because the historian is "attempting" to predict so the action is happening in the present. Am I wrong here? Thanks.

whoa. major misunderstanding here.

-ING forms are NOT present-tense forms.

the -ING is called "present participle", but this is a misleading name, as the -ING adopts the tense of the clause to which it's attached. participles by themselves have no tense at all.

examples:
students writing papers 100 years ago used quill pens.
--> here the principal tense is the past ("used"), so the action of writing is ALSO in the past tense.
students writing papers 20 years from now will use voice recognition software.
--> here the principal tense is the future ("will use"), so the action of writing is ALSO in the future tense.

--

even if you didn't know this, it's obvious that the principal action of this sentence can't take place in the present, since the sentence is set in the 1870's.

I also have a second question. What is the difference between "If" and "Should" ?

1. If present metal prices continue to sharply rise, the value of the
copper in a penny will soon be greater than the face value of the coin.

a. if present metal prices continue to sharply rise,
b. if present metal prices are continuing their sharp rise,
c. should present metal prices continue their sharp rise,
d. continuation of sharply rising metal prices should mean that
e. metal prices' sharp rise continuing should mean that

Thanks!

they're largely the same. there are minor rhetorical differences, but nothing that will make or break a question on the test.

they're grammatically different, though.
"if" is a subordinating conjunction, and isn't part of a verb construction. therefore, it's used with normal verbs.
"should" is a helping verb. therefore, it's used with infinitive type verbs (i.e., the infinitive form, minus the "to").

examples:
if you are late tomorrow, you'll be fired.
should you be late tomorrow, you'll be fired.

[goelmohit2002]

I also have a second question. What is the difference between "If" and "Should" ?

1. If present metal prices continue to sharply rise, the value of the
copper in a penny will soon be greater than the face value of the coin.

a. if present metal prices continue to sharply rise,
b. if present metal prices are continuing their sharp rise,
c. should present metal prices continue their sharp rise,
d. continuation of sharply rising metal prices should mean that
e. metal prices' sharp rise continuing should mean that

Thanks!

they're largely the same. there are minor rhetorical differences, but nothing that will make or break a question on the test.

they're grammatically different, though.
"if" is a subordinating conjunction, and isn't part of a verb construction. therefore, it's used with normal verbs.
"should" is a helping verb. therefore, it's used with infinitive type verbs (i.e., the infinitive form, minus the "to").

examples:
if you are late tomorrow, you'll be fired.
should you be late tomorrow, you'll be fired.

Hi Ron,

But as per Manhattan SC guide should means moral obligation....then how can the same be correct in this case ?

Can we use should also in place of "if" in GMAT?

Thanks
Mohit

[goelmohit2002]

I also have a second question. What is the difference between "If" and "Should" ?

1. If present metal prices continue to sharply rise, the value of the
copper in a penny will soon be greater than the face value of the coin.

a. if present metal prices continue to sharply rise,
b. if present metal prices are continuing their sharp rise,
c. should present metal prices continue their sharp rise,
d. continuation of sharply rising metal prices should mean that
e. metal prices' sharp rise continuing should mean that

Thanks!

Hi All,

Here the OA = C. Can someone please tell why C is preferable over A ?

[sachin.iet]

Well Mohit,
As far as i could figure out,both A and C are correct in themselves independently,but A is not consistent with the non underlined part.

Non underlined part has used WILL which impiles a certainity.
Hence C ineffect says that "With the rise in metal prises the value of the
copper in a penny will (definitely) soon be greater than the face value of the coin"

A would be a much better choice if there had been a WOULD in place of WILL in the nonunderlined part

We require the use of "˜would’ as the auxiliary verb to express a mood of "˜contingency or possibility',

In hypothetical situations with IF we generally use WOULD and not WILL.

An example may make it more clear:
"If I were a rich man, I will drive a Ferrari" is not a logical statement. The correct statement should be phrased, "If I were a rich man, I WOULD drive a Ferrari"

Hope this make sense
Correct me if wrong.

[sunny.jain]

I also have a second question. What is the difference between "If" and "Should" ?

1. If present metal prices continue to sharply rise, the value of the
copper in a penny will soon be greater than the face value of the coin.

a. if present metal prices continue to sharply rise,
b. if present metal prices are continuing their sharp rise,
c. should present metal prices continue their sharp rise,
d. continuation of sharply rising metal prices should mean that
e. metal prices' sharp rise continuing should mean that

Thanks!

Hi All,

Here the OA = C. Can someone please tell why C is preferable over A ?

if present metal prices continue to sharply rise

or

if present metal prices continue to rise sharply

Got it now..!

[sachin.iet]

Well Sunny i could not resist the temptation to reply to this post
You are 100% correct with your explanation

Hatts Off to you.

I have checked it from Manhattan SC book,which says that in case of infinitive verb(TO+ Verb) we cannot include anything b/w TO and the VERB.
Hence it is wrong to say " TO QUICKLY RUN "
Correct form is: "TO RUN QUICKLY"

But in case of normal verb froms a simple adverb should precede the verb
e.g: "I quickly ate" is more preferable than "I ate quickly"

My learning" Sometimes we underestimare simple things "
From here after I will follw the KISS rule-" Keep It Simple Sachin".

Thanks again Sunny.

Regards

[goelmohit2002]

if present metal prices continue to sharply rise

or

if present metal prices continue to rise sharply

Got it now..!

Hi Sunny,

Can you please elaborate a bit...what problem you are pointing to here with "sharply rise".

Thanks
Mohit

[goelmohit2002]

I have checked it from Manhattan SC book,which says that in case of infinitive verb(TO+ Verb) we cannot include anything b/w TO and the VERB.
Hence it is wrong to say " TO QUICKLY RUN "
Correct form is: "TO RUN QUICKLY"

But in case of normal verb froms a simple adverb should precede the verb
e.g: "I quickly ate" is more preferable than "I ate quickly"

Hi Sachin,

Can you please point me to the section in Manhattan SC guide that talks about this rule ?

I checked the 4th edition of Manhattan SC guide, but could not find anything of this sort in the Manhattan Guide....Probably I might have missed the same while searching through the book.

Thanks
Mohit

[sachin.iet]

Hey Mohit, I may be carrying the different edition of Manhattan SC.
You just check for sectionInfinitives under "Verb Tense,Mood and Voice " topic

[goelmohit2002]

Hey Mohit, I may be carrying the different edition of Manhattan SC.
You just check for sectionInfinitives under "Verb Tense,Mood and Voice " topic

Hi Sachin,

There is no such section in entire book of Manhattan SC guide 4th edition :-(

Looks like this is not in course of GMAT now :-).....just kidding....

is there a official question that tests this concept....when I did OG last time....I do not think there was any explanation in OG that kicked out answer based on this concept. ?

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Thanks
Mohit

[hassantexpert]

goelmohit2002
Quote goelmohit2002 Post subject: Re: Future Perfect Subjunctive?!
sachin.iet wrote:Hey Mohit, I may be carrying the different edition of Manhattan SC.
You just check for sectionInfinitives under "Verb Tense,Mood and Voice " topic

Hi Sachin,

There is no such section in entire book of Manhattan SC guide 4th edition :-(

Looks like this is not in course of GMAT now :-).....just kidding....

is there a official question that tests this concept....when I did OG last time....I do not think there was any explanation in OG that kicked out answer based on this concept. ?

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Thanks
Mohit


_------------------------------------------------------------------

Mohit ,I firmly beleive that many concepts in OG are missing . Manhattan gmat has pointed out intricate concepts on the basis of which we can easily eliminate faulty choices.
sachin is totally credible when he points out that (To + XXX Verb ) form is wrong .

xxxx .........stands for any word or words .

I have detailed theory on this subject that can clarify all your doubts .Incase u want more of this contact me on my email that is hassantexpert@hotmail.com

Pls tell me ur emails too......... So dat we can start discusion via Messengers of skypes .

Best of Luck !!

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,

But as per Manhattan SC guide should means moral obligation....then how can the same be correct in this case ?

there are many words that have more than one sense or meaning; "should" is one of them.

Can we use should also in place of "if" in GMAT?

Thanks
Mohit

nope. if you use "should" in the above sense, then the following verb is used in an infinitive form.
should you be late, you will be kept outside until intermission.

if you use "if", the following verb appears either in the subjunctive or in a normal tense (such as the present).
if you are late, you will be kept outside until intermission.
if he were taller, he would be able to reach the top shelf.

[RonPurewal]

Here the OA = C. Can someone please tell why C is preferable over A ?

"to sharply rise" is not acceptable. you can't break up an infinitive with an adverb.

--

as long as we're at it... "prefer(able) OVER" is not idiomatic; the proper idiom is "prefer(able) TO".

[riyazg754]

Ron,

In advanced varab and comparison section, Manhattan SC guide says that,

"a condition should be expressed by using If and use of inverted modal verb such as 'should' be avoided.

can you pls explain.

Riyaz