Verbal problems from the *free* official practice tests and
problems from mba.com
RonPurewal
Students
 
Posts: 19744
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by RonPurewal Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:00 am

thanghnvn Wrote:comma +ed (past particple of verb) , as inhere, refers to the nearest noun in the preceding clause, not to the subject of preceding clause.

Am I right?


to which example are you referring?
i don't see a sentence with comma -ED in your post. (your only example contains -ING, not -ED.)

please give the actual sentence that you're analyzing here. thanks.
thanghnvn
Prospective Students
 
Posts: 711
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:09 pm
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by thanghnvn Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:10 am

On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow, as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks.


A. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow
B. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are, it is believed, the rate of tree growth
C. On Earth, the rate at which trees grow is believed to be among the surest indications of sunspot cycles
D. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles, believed to be the tree growth rate
E. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles is believed to be the rate at which trees grow

What I mean is that

COMMA V3 refers to the preceding noun (the above sentence show this point)

while

COMMA DOING refers to the preceding clause.

COMMA V3 never refers to preceding clause. I doubt this thing.
COMMA DOING never refers to the preceding noun. I doubt this thing.


pls, help me out.
RonPurewal
Students
 
Posts: 19744
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by RonPurewal Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:44 pm

thanghnvn, i don't know what "V3" means, so i can't tell what you are trying to ask.
it would help if you actually cited the specific parts of the answer choices to which you are referring, rather than using all these abstract symbols. thanks.
RonPurewal
Students
 
Posts: 19744
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by RonPurewal Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:46 pm

thanghnvn, i don't know what "V3" means, so i can't tell what you are trying to ask.
it would help if you actually cited the specific parts of the answer choices to which you are referring, rather than using all these abstract symbols. thanks.
davetzulin
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:56 pm
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by davetzulin Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:24 am

C. On Earth, the rate at which trees grow is believed to be among the surest indications of sunspot cycles

does a leading preposition modifier have some attributes that interleaved prep. modifiers don't have?

normally when I see a prepositional modifier, I am flexible in looking for what it modifies since there are cases where it is adverbial and can modify something far from it

like below, where "with a rudimentary" ostensibly modifies womb, but in reality is modifying emerges.

A baby emerges from the darkness of the womb with a rudimentary sense of vision that would be rated about 20/500...

so for "on earth", i felt that it is touching "the rate". so the rate on earth.

also, it could also modify "trees grow" as an adverbial prep modifier.

i agree that it certainly sounds like it is giving context to the entire sentence since it is right in the beginning with a comma after, maybe that is the rule?

I did notice that Ron said this modifier is "MUCH BETTER" in another choice and I've read enough of his posts to know when he says something is flat out wrong vs. better.
thanghnvn
Prospective Students
 
Posts: 711
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:09 pm
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by thanghnvn Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:04 am

//On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow//, as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks.


A. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow
B. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are, it is believed, the rate of tree growth
C. On Earth, the rate at which trees grow is believed to be among the surest indications of sunspot cycles
D. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles, believed to be the tree growth rate
E. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles is believed to be the rate at which trees grow

What I mean is that

COMMA +do-ed refers to the preceding noun (the above sentence from gmatprep shows this point). OA is E.

while

COMMA+ DOING refers to the preceding clause.

COMMA +do-ed never refers to preceding clause. I doubt this thing.
COMMA +DOING never refers to the preceding noun. I doubt this thing.


pls, help me out.
davetzulin
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:56 pm
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by davetzulin Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:59 pm

thangvn,

COMMA +do-ed never refers to preceding clause. I doubt this thing.


the mgmat guide does not mention comma + verb-ed as a modifier of a preceding clause.

is this what you mean?
i went out to eat, tired of eating at home

if so i don't think the above is allowed.

tired of eating at home, i went out to eat

the above is allowed, since it's modifying "i".

COMMA +DOING never refers to the preceding noun. I doubt this thing.


I'm still iffy on this. Before I thought the second example below would be a non-essential noun modifier of "cat", but one of the thursday night videos with Tommy he mentioned that a "noun , verb-ing, " when the verb-ing is a noun modifier is not correct... no explicit reason given.

(1). the cat sleeping on the rug is tired <-- ok
(2). the cat, sleeping on the rug, is tired <-- apparently not ok..

of course i'm not the expert here. let us see what the staff says.
RonPurewal
Students
 
Posts: 19744
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by RonPurewal Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:47 pm

if COMMA ___ING follows an entire clause, it should modify that entire clause (= it should modify the action of that clause).

if that sort of modifier just follows the subject of the sentence, as in davetzulin's example above, then it will modify only that subject (largely because there's nothing else for it to modify).
zhongshanlh
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:34 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by zhongshanlh Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:10 am

Ron,
having read all the posts in this thread, i still have 2 questions.

1.i have finished the Manhattan SC guide 4th, and in chapter13,i know that "as" can be used as prep or conjunction.
when uses as conjunction, there are 3 kinds of different uses of as:
duration as:AS I strolled to the store, I smelled the air.
causation as:I will not tell you, AS you already know.
comparison as: You should walkASshe wants you to.

when used as a preposition,"as" has multiple meanings too, such as Function As,Equation As and Stage As.

however, in this problem, i don't totally understand what is the function of as in the sentence"as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks"
so please clarify me.

2.i have the same question as thanghnvn asked about in the previous post.

in this kind of construction--->COMMA +verbED
i remember that the verbED should always be regarded as a past participle and used to modify the noun that close to it in the previous clause(so it is always a noun modifier)
am i thinking right?please help and thank you in advance!
RonPurewal
Students
 
Posts: 19744
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by RonPurewal Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:38 am

zhongshanlh Wrote:however, in this problem, i don't totally understand what is the function of as in the sentence"as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks"
so please clarify me.


as usual, i have no idea what you would call this in terms of grammar terminology. but, basically, the meaning here is that you can see evidence of the thing, but not the thing itself. i.e., in this case, you obviously can't literally see a rate by looking at tree rings, but you can see stuff from which the rate can be determined, or, in other words, stuff that's related to the rate.
here's another example:
the reaction will produce brown smoke, as described in the laboratory manual.
this means that the lab manual says "hey, there's gonna be smoke" -- i.e., the lab manual talks [i]about
the smoke -- but doesn't describe the smoke itself.
if the lab manual actually gives a physical description of the smoke, then you can write "...the smoke described in the lab manual".

sorry i can't help you with grammar terms, but i pretty much don't know any of those unless i can google them, and this isn't really something that is google-able.

in this kind of construction--->COMMA +verbED
i remember that the verbED should always be regarded as a past participle and used to modify the noun that close to it in the previous clause(so it is always a noun modifier)


yes on the noun modifier part; no on the "closest noun" part.
if you have a comma in front of that participle, then it will usually modify the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.
for instance:
* Tanya collapsed onto the couch, exhausted from a 14-hour work shift
(here, "exhausted" modifies the subject "Tanya")

if you want to modify the closest noun, then you are normally going to ditch the comma:
[i]in the attic, i found an old box inlaid with precious stones.[/]
(here, "inlaid" modifies "box")
itsmeaakash3
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:40 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by itsmeaakash3 Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:01 pm

I feel in "E" ... the meaning is still distorted. It implies as if there are multile earths, and "Earth of sunspot cycles" is what we are talking abt.
tim
Course Students
 
Posts: 5665
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:08 am
Location: Southwest Airlines, seat 21C
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by tim Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:01 am

it doesn't matter what you "feel". the real question is can you accept that this is the correct answer and that the GMAT is okay with this construction?
Tim Sanders
Manhattan GMAT Instructor

Follow this link for some important tips to get the most out of your forum experience:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/forums/a-few-tips-t31405.html
mtanutama
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:17 pm
 

Re:

by mtanutama Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:22 am

RonPurewal Wrote:some things wrong with c:
* the placement of 'on earth' is just as problematic as in choice a (again, the sentence seems to be saying that residents of other planets disagree with us).
* 'as seen in the rings...' is a modifier that must be placed next to the thing that it modifies, which is 'the rate at which trees grow'. the way choice c is currently written, it says that indications of sunspot cycles can be seen directly in the rings - and it also implies that sunspot cycles (instead of trees) have rings!


Hi Ron, so is the OA, choice E or C?

"Is", not "Are", because the rate is believed. So, with the idiom among X is/are Y, the verb depends on Y? Consequently, Y is/are among X, the verb depends on Y?

I chose E, because among the indications on PLACE of HEADING is believed to be MAIN TOPIC, (and that main topic is) as seen in the rings... Logically, the rate that trees grow, being the main topic is what is as seen in the rings...

Thus, not C, because it is not the sunspot cycles as seen in the rings... the main point talked about, which is the growth rate of tree is as seen in the rings.

I eliminated answers that has "On Earth" at the beginning, because of the comma before as seen. The sentence would mean that the Earth is what is as seen in the rings, which is not the case.

Am I understanding you and this question right? Thank you.
jlucero
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 1:33 am
 

Re: Re:

by jlucero Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:26 pm

m_tanutama Wrote:Hi Ron, so is the OA, choice E or C?


OA: E

m_tanutama Wrote:"Is", not "Are", because the rate is believed. So, with the idiom among X is/are Y, the verb depends on Y? Consequently, Y is/are among X, the verb depends on Y?


Correct. This is a case of an inverted form. In both instances, the subject of the sentence dictates the verb:

The rate is the surest indication of sunspot cycles.
Among the surest indications of sunspot cycles is the rate.

The rates are the surest indication of sunspot cycles.
Among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are the rates.

m_tanutama Wrote:I chose E, because among the indications on PLACE of HEADING is believed to be MAIN TOPIC, (and that main topic is) as seen in the rings... Logically, the rate that trees grow, being the main topic is what is as seen in the rings...

Thus, not C, because it is not the sunspot cycles as seen in the rings... the main point talked about, which is the growth rate of tree is as seen in the rings.

I eliminated answers that has "On Earth" at the beginning, because of the comma before as seen. The sentence would mean that the Earth is what is as seen in the rings, which is not the case.

Am I understanding you and this question right? Thank you.


I like your thought process here, except for the last part. You can have a modifier-clause-modifier structure, and often this is the best way to clearly express an idea:

"On our trip, we need to remember to pack the large items first, as this will help us to pack more efficiently."

When do we need to remember to pack large items first? On our trip.
Why do we need to remember to pack large items first? As this will help us pack more efficiently.

"On Earth" at the beginning is wrong, but not for the reason you mentioned. As Ron stated earlier:

the placement of 'on earth' is also much better in e than in a.
- e says what it's supposed to say: we're looking at indications that are on earth. (this answer choice implies that better indicators are available elsewhere - presumably closer to the sun.)
- a says that tree growth is believed to be a good indicator by people on earth (--> martians beg to differ).
Joe Lucero
Manhattan GMAT Instructor
itsmeaakash3
Forum Guests
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:40 am
 

Re: On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

by itsmeaakash3 Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:52 am

In E "Earth of sunspot cycles " sounds as if Earth belongs to sunspot cycles :(