'That' modifier

[j4893]

Dear instructors,

I'm not sure whether 'that' modifiers should touch the noun they modify or not.

- Ron says it depends: With "that" modifiers, you can have a whole bunch of stuff between the noun and "that", as long as the meaning is still clear from context. Source: that-modifier-versus-which-t16425.html
- Stacey wants the 'that' modifier to touch the noun: "that featured" indicated a noun modifier, which again required the noun to be next to the modifier. Again, the festivals featured the described things, not the home. Source: http://www.beatthegmat.com/word-placeme ... t1221.html
- Ben Ku agrees with Stacey that the 'that' modifier should touch the noun: Answer Choice (C) is correct because it eliminates the relative pronoun "that" which in other choices incorrectly modifies the noun they touch. Source: an-economic-recession-can-result-from-a-lowering-t1071.html

Question: can I safely eliminate 'that' modifiers if they do not touch the noun they are supposed to modify?
If not, what is the difference between Ron's case and Ben Ku's and Stacey's?

Thanks!

[Willy]

All the experts are correct.

I would say, Ron is talking about the special case of THAT. As you have noted in Ron's point,

With "that" modifiers, you can have a whole bunch of stuff between the noun and "that", as long as the meaning is still clear from context.

Ron is saying that you can have a whole bunch of stuff between the noun and "that" or you always have a whole bunch of stuff between the noun and "that"; he is just saying you can have all these stuff.

Otherwise, all the experts are saying the same thing i.e. THAT modifier must touch (or as close as possible) the noun.

[j4893]

Let me be more specific:

Stacey states that 'Aho, a Kiowa matriarch, held festivals in her home that featured the preparation of great quantities of ceremonial food, the wearing of many layers of colorful clothing bla bla..' is incorrect because 'that' refers to 'home' and cannot refer to 'festivals'.

However, Ron states it depends on the context to what 'that' refers, and that 'that' can refer to a noun not directly preceding 'that' (and with another noun in between), as can be seen from this first example (quote from Ron):

The library has instituted a new method of sorting CDs that will make certain genres of music easier to find.
--> here, "that will make..." refers to the method of sorting.
The library has instituted a new method of sorting CDs that won't fit into any of the traditional musical genres.
--> here, "that won't fit..." refers to the cd's, not the method.

In Ron's example, it's ok that the noun 'CDs' falls in between. In Stacey's example, 'that' clearly refers to the festivals, as 'a home' can't feature 'the preparation of anything'. So Stacey's case seems is analogue to Ron's: the context makes it clear that 'that' doesn't refer to the noun directly preceding 'that', and hence 'that' can refer to an earlier noun.

So my question remains: in the construction
(NOUN1)...(NOUN2)that...
Is 'that' allowed to refer to NOUN1 or not?

---

I just found another correct sentence whereby 'that' doesn't refer to the noun directly preceding 'that':
Japan's is a culture of accommodation and constraint, a system of forms, etiquette, and images that makes the
Source: japan-is-a-culture-of-accommodation-t3041.html

[Willy]

Thank you for the great question!

I am really sorry for not being able to help you here. I think these constructions are same as (except for comma and in place of Which, That is used)

Noun1+prep+Noun2+comma+which

where WHICH can refer to Noun1

In case you don't know about the above rule, please go through the below given link till the time we wait for experts' comment

use-of-which-modifier-t16566.html

I can relate 'which' -relative pronoun to another relative pronoun - 'that' and I think same rule is at work in the examples you have mentioned.

Again, I am sorry for not being much helpful. Lets wait for experts!

[j4893]

I just found some extra info in the MGMAT book (5th edition, p238, hereinafter 'the book'), however, the question remains unsolved.

I think we're dealing with a 'mission critical modifier'. According to the book, this modifier is often an 'of'-phrase.
Apparently, 'in' (see Stacey's text) is not allowed as a 'mission critical modifier'. The problem is that the book doesn't define which 'mission critical' prepositions are allowed and which aren't, it only states "this modifier is often an of-phrase", leaving us in the dark which prepositions are allowed and which aren't...

I hope an expert can approve the following rule:
'Mission critical' modifiers only work with the preposition 'of'.

Can we conclude that, regarding 'mission critical' modifiers, 'which' and 'that' always follow the same rules?

This rule works with all examples above:
- Stacey's: 'in' --> not mission critical --> 'that' refers to the noun directly preceding 'that'
- Regarding the CDs and Japan: 'of' --> mission critical --> 'that' may refer to the noun preceding 'of'

[j4893]

Ooh no, I've just found an exception to the rule I've just created:
sc-mexican-revolution-t3677.html
Here, answer E has a 'mission-critical' modifier with 'of' and is in the correct tense, making not only the OA A correct, but also E..

I hope the rule stated in the previous thread still holds, arguing that this exception question most likely is a non-official question...

[Willy]

I think it will be risky to say mission critical modifiers only work with OF preposition. The main point, i believe, in

noun1+prep+noun2+that

is that prep+noun2 must act as one unit, modifying the noun1. If this is the case then THAT can jump noun2 and refer to noun1.

(All this I am inferring from what is discussed for WHICH at use-of-which-modifier-t16566.html)

Again, I will wait for experts here.

[jlucero]

Willy, you're making a lot of great points here. I agree with everything you are saying. The biggest issue with any GMAT sentence is we want a clear, unambiguous, grammatically correct answer choice, so whether or not this is an official GMAT rule, we think there are ways to misconstrue certain modifiers. Back to j4893's example:

'Aho held festivals in her home that featured the preparation of great quantities of ceremonial food...

Even though "featured the preparation of..." should be modifying festivals, it COULD be modifying home. So we don't like this. Mission critical modifiers combine with nouns to make one whole thing so that any modifiers afterwards (especially ones that start with "that") must modify as a whole.

The problem with your rule is that it focuses on the prepositional phrase, when the real question you should be asking yourself is "can the next modifier be describing the proper term"

The picture on my desk, which was of me and my brother, was stolen yesterday.

In this case, "which was of me and my brother" can only refer to the picture and not the desk, so this sentence is fine.

[Willy]

Thank you for the reply sir. Appreciate it.

[jlucero]

Thank YOU!

[sid090188]

Hi, in the sentence posted:

The picture on my desk, which was of me and my brother, was stolen yesterday.

which can refer to the desk (because it is the nearest noun)so how come this sentence is right then. If it were some person or a plural noun, then it would be okay since which cannot be used for a person or a plural noun.Please explain.

Also I get confused when mission critical modiers occurs,specifically when dealing with relative pronouns.Please post some good read on misssion critical modiers with relative pronouns.

[tim]

don't worry about "mission critical modifiers", just worry about what makes sense and applying the rules correctly..

i don't necessarily agree that the picture on the desk sentence is correct, because i don't recall seeing any GMAT questions where this sort of thing is allowed. i think Joe meant to use a "that" to demonstrate his point, because with "that" you are looking for something that makes sense, whereas the rules about "which" are much more restrictive..

[Willy]

I agree with Tim sir but still I think the following sentence is correct.

The picture on my desk, which was of me and my brother, was stolen yesterday.

Here logically 'which' can't refer to 'desk' (though grammatical it may). First we are saying 'my desk' and then we are saying 'which was of me and my brother', logically/grammatically 'desk' belongs to me NOT to me and my brother. So, 'which' refers to 'picture' without any problem and sentence is fine.

If it were some person or a plural noun, then it would be okay since which cannot be used for a person or a plural noun.Please explain.

'Which' can refer to plural things.

(I am not good at constructing examples but let me.)

e.g.
I have many books, which I have borrowed from my sister.

here 'which' refers to 'books' - plural.

[tim]

as near as we can tell from existing problems, logic does not play a part in the use of "which". i've never seen the GMAT go with anything other than a strict interpretation of the rule..

[j4893]

Tim, Joe, Willy,

Thanks for joining the discussion!

Even though Joe says I shouldn't focus on the preposition, the MGMAT book does focus on the preposition, and I agree it's a good differentiator. After making hundreds of official questions, I haven't found a question not complying to the rule:

'Mission critical' modifiers only work with the preposition 'of'.

Hence, I'd like to challenge you to find an official GMAT question (the 'Mexican Revolution' question wasn't a proven official question) in which the correct answer violates the rule, as I couldn't find it.

Thanks!