Uses of Which

[shankar245]

Hi Ron,

Apologies for re opening a pretty old post, but I'm sure you would be happy to prove me wrong here!.


Please see this example ,which I think is correct.

The college dean chose Mr.Shankar of the left party, who was associated with the organisation for more than 20 years, to take over all the logistical operations in India.

Here who refers to shankar as the phrase left party modifies shankar.

Now the actual question
is the smallest network digital camcorder in the world, which is as long as a handheld computer, and it weighs

Here again can we not say 100% that which would always refer to the camcorder as the phrase " in the world" modifies digital camcorder.( leaving other grammatical errors for now)?

We can see evidence for this behaviour here ( This is gmat prep / OG problem ) So no copyright issues :)
Emily Dickinson’s letters to Susan Huntington Dickinson, which were written over a period beginning a few years before Susan’s marriage to Emily’s brother and ending shortly before Emily’s death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.
here clearly which refers to letters.

[thanghnvn]

noun modifier can modify a noun group and in this case modifier can modify a far noun.

the person in the garden who is strong is my friend.

" who ...friend" modifies noun group "the person in the garden". This case is acceptable only when the prepositional phrase "in the garden" modify the noun " the person".

it can not be acceptable that

the person and his relative who is strong is my friend.

case 2:
noun modifier can touch the modified noun. This case is easy and popular.

the person who is wrong is my friend.

in the gmatclub, there is an artical said about this problem fully.

"far noun" problem makes me crazy before but I think the problem is cristally clear now.

[tim]

"which" modifies things and not people. if there is a person right before the comma, back up until you find a thing..

"who" modifies people and not things. if there is a thing right before the comma, back up until you find a person..

if there is a thing right before the "which", that is the thing the "which" modifies..

[divineacclivity]

Hei - They are claiming that it IS something - not that it "to be" something - so, no, we wouldn't use "to be" here. We'd say "the company has unveiled what it claims is the world's smallest..."

I could say, though, "she claims to be a violinist, but I've heard her play and she's terrible." So there are circumstances in which you could use "claim to be" - but this isn't one of them.

And, yes, answer is D.

Stacey/Ron,

What is the difference in meaning of the two sentences:
1. She claims her dog to be the best.
2. She claims her dog is the best.

I know the second sentence sounds perfect but doesn't the first one also mean the same?

Please explain. Thank you.

Editing my post for something struck my mind.
Does the first one mean: she claims her dog to become the best i.e. it is not yet the best.
If yes, then the sentence, "she claims to be a violinist" would also sound like "she claims to become a violinist".

Ohhh, I'm confused again. I would need your help on this.

She claims to be the best
She claims her dog to be the best
She claims to be a vocalist
Aren't all the three sentences correct? Why/Why not?

[RonPurewal]

hi,

this is a very "writerly" distinction, and so is extremely unlikely to be dispositive in a gmat problem.

nonetheless, here's a pretty good, if overly simplistic, guide to differentiating between the two constructions:
1/
"claimed to be..." (along with its cousins, such as "believed to be...") should largely be restricted to passive constructions -- in which the lack of a corresponding subject (the sentence doesn't say who believes or claims xxxx) makes it impossible to use a verb.
2/
you may also see "claim to be..." for verbs whose subject is the same as the subject of "claim", e.g., my brother claims to be a genius.

in other cases, if it's possible to use a verb, use a verb.

What is the difference in meaning of the two sentences:
1. She claims her dog to be the best.
2. She claims her dog is the best.

using the guidelines above, #2 is better. (you would probably want to insert "that" after "she claims", but that's another issue that won't be tested on the gmat exam.)

i don't think #1 is, strictly speaking, wrong -- but it's ugly, and is not the kind of thing that will show up in an officially correct answer.
(also, this distinction is a perfect example of the kind of thing that native english speakers just know. because gmac knows that's the case, they won't write a problem that depends on it.)

She claims to be the best
She claims her dog to be the best
She claims to be a vocalist
Aren't all the three sentences correct? Why/Why not?

same deal as above. #1 and #3 are fine. #2, while perhaps not technically incorrect, is inferior to "she claims (that) her dog is the best"; again, this distinction will not be dispositive in an official problem.

[divineacclivity]

hi,

this is a very "writerly" distinction, and so is extremely unlikely to be dispositive in a gmat problem.

nonetheless, here's a pretty good, if overly simplistic, guide to differentiating between the two constructions:
1/
"claimed to be..." (along with its cousins, such as "believed to be...") should largely be restricted to passive constructions -- in which the lack of a corresponding subject (the sentence doesn't say who believes or claims xxxx) makes it impossible to use a verb.
2/
you may also see "claim to be..." for verbs whose subject is the same as the subject of "claim", e.g., my brother claims to be a genius.

in other cases, if it's possible to use a verb, use a verb.

What is the difference in meaning of the two sentences:
1. She claims her dog to be the best.
2. She claims her dog is the best.

using the guidelines above, #2 is better. (you would probably want to insert "that" after "she claims", but that's another issue that won't be tested on the gmat exam.)

i don't think #1 is, strictly speaking, wrong -- but it's ugly, and is not the kind of thing that will show up in an officially correct answer.
(also, this distinction is a perfect example of the kind of thing that native english speakers just know. because gmac knows that's the case, they won't write a problem that depends on it.)

She claims to be the best
She claims her dog to be the best
She claims to be a vocalist
Aren't all the three sentences correct? Why/Why not?

same deal as above. #1 and #3 are fine. #2, while perhaps not technically incorrect, is inferior to "she claims (that) her dog is the best"; again, this distinction will not be dispositive in an official problem.

Ron, I wonder how you manage to make subtlest of the differences so easy for others to understand. Hats off to you :)

[tim]

:)

[sachin.w]

Apart from the usage of 'to be' in A, do we have any other issue in it?
I know that it is wordy but am just trying to see if it is grammatically correct.

[tim]

yes, there are other mistakes. see if you can find them. remember, "wordy" is NEVER a reason to get rid of an answer..

[sachin.w]

Thanks Tim.
Guess the presence of ambiguous 'it' is an issue in A.
Please correct me if I am incorrect.

[RonPurewal]

Thanks Tim.
Guess the presence of ambiguous 'it' is an issue in A.
Please correct me if I am incorrect.

"...and it weighs..." seems to imply that we are discussing the weight of the electronics company.
to clarify that it's the weight of the device -- as obvious as that may be -- a modifier should be used.

don't forget, by the way, that you shouldn't always consider each answer choice as an absolutely separate entity.
if you compare two choices, and see that one of them conveys the intended message much more clearly than does the other one, that's also sufficient to decide the issue.

[sachin.w]

Thanks Ron . :)

[tim]

:)

[mcmebk]

Hei - They are claiming that it IS something - not that it "to be" something - so, no, we wouldn't use "to be" here. We'd say "the company has unveiled what it claims is the world's smallest..."

I could say, though, "she claims to be a violinist, but I've heard her play and she's terrible." So there are circumstances in which you could use "claim to be" - but this isn't one of them.

And, yes, answer is D.

Hi Ron/Stacy,

I still don't get the difference between "to be" and "is" here, could you give more explanation? Thank you very much!

this is not an inherent difference between "to be" and "is"; the difference is idiomatic and is based on the usage of "claim".

"claim to be" is only used when the person making the claim is talking about him/herself.
i.e.,
my five-year-old brother james claims to be the principal conductor of the boston symphony orchestra --> correct, because james is talking about himself.

Hi Ron/Stacy I have several questions on this post:

1. Isn't the word "claim" similar to indicate, content and report, and thus need "that"?

She contented that her dog is the best
She claimed that her dog is the best?

2. Ron you taught us the structure "Comma+Verbing" always modify the precceding clause, for example:

the truck spilled a tankful of gasoline, some of which spilled into the river, killing a large number of fish. - Here "killing..." modifies the "some of which...";

and in Answer E, if there is no "the length of which is that of a handheld computer," , the "weighing..." should modify the clause "The company unveiled...." or the subordinate clause "what (it claims) is the world's smallest...", in another word, when a subordinate clause is "contained" in a main clause, which one does the "Comma + Verbing" modify?

Thank you all.

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron/Stacy I have several questions on this post:

did you have more questions that you didn't list yet?

maybe i'm just being a nitpicker here, but you wrote "several". (it's unusual for someone to use the word "several" in reference to exactly 2 things.)

1. Isn't the word "claim" similar to indicate, content and report, and thus need "that"?

She contented that her dog is the best
She claimed that her dog is the best?

i don't think there are any verbs that REQUIRE the word "that".
read this:
post47979.html#p47979

2. Ron you taught us the structure "Comma+Verbing" always modify the precceding clause, for example:

the truck spilled a tankful of gasoline, some of which spilled into the river, killing a large number of fish. - Here "killing..." modifies the "some of which...";

and in Answer E, if there is no "the length of which is that of a handheld computer," , the "weighing..." should modify the clause "The company unveiled...." or the subordinate clause "what (it claims) is the world's smallest...", in another word, when a subordinate clause is "contained" in a main clause, which one does the "Comma + Verbing" modify?

Thank you all.

the most important thing i can say here is that you shouldn't put too much effort into analyzing the structure of that answer choice, because it's ... well, it's a WRONG answer choice. so, yeah.

in regard to your question, though, it's customary for comma -ING to modify the closest action -- because, if it modifies something farther away, there's a danger of lack of clarity.
i'm not trying to posit some sort of absolute rule here -- i'm sure there are exceptions -- but here's the context in which you'll usually see that sort of thing:
I lost my grip on the discus, which then flew backward out of my hand, almost smashing into a spectator's head.
--> (ok, there's an adverb in front of "smashing", but that doesn't change the nature of the comma -ING construction.) in this case, the comma -ING is describing the closest action.